Episode 14

Josiah Williams (Wrestle And Flow) on Naomi's Entrance Theme, Taya Valkyrie's Theme, Creativity

Published on: 5th May, 2025

John Kiernan speaks with Josiah Williams, known as Wrestle And Flow, about his journey in creating wrestling entrance themes. They discuss the creative process behind these themes, the importance of presentation, and the trial and error involved in content creation. Josiah shares insights on working with various talents, including Aleister Black (formerly Malakai Black), Taya Valkyrie, and Naomi, and emphasizes the significance of lyrics in entrance themes. The discussion also touches on collaboration within the wrestling music industry and the evolution of themes over time.

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About The Show:

Do you like wrestling? Do you like music and stories from the road? Join John Kiernan, wrestling entrance theme song composer, and professional musician of over 10 years for stories and interviews with your favorite wrestlers, rock stars, and personalities!


About the Host:

John Kiernan is a wrestling entrance theme song composer with over 150 themes written for wrestlers in various promotions such as NJPW, WWE, ROH, MLW, and many more. As a professional musician, a veteran in the podcasting space, an avid pro wrestling fan and wrestling personality by way of creating the soundtracks for your favorite wrestlers, John Kiernan forges his latest podcasting venture into diving into stories of music, stories from the road, and wrestling from all walks of life from your (and his) favorites of all time.


#music #wrestling #ropesnriffs #johnkiernan

Transcript
Speaker:

It is so good to have you here on the show again with me.

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My name is John.

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am a wrestling entrance theme song composer and welcome as always to the ropes and riffs

podcast where we talk all about wrestling entrance themes with your favorite wrestlers,

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your favorite musicians and your favorite wrestling entrance theme composers.

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And today I'm to be speaking with the one and the only Josiah Williams, also known as

wrestling flow.

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You may know him from his time at NXT.

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You may know him from his work that he's done with such acts such as Naomi and so many

more.

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Naomi Trinity when she was in TNA, as well as Taya Valkyrie.

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And we talk about all of that, including an entrance scene that we worked on quite some

time ago too.

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We talk about a lot of different things on the show.

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We talk about how in this crazy world that we're in right now, you too can be a creator

and how you can start with just the basics and work your way up and how you should always

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just give it a try.

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I love doing this, I love doing entrance themes, but it hasn't always been where I've had

the gear that you see or hear on the show right now.

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I've started off with an iPhone and I still use an iPhone and all this different gear.

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So it's a really inspiring conversation with one of the most inspiring, awesome

individuals that I'm grateful to call a friend and I'm grateful to call a guest on our

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show here.

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If you'd like to make a PayPal donation, you can check the link in the description here.

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And if you donate $10 or more, I'll go ahead and shout you out on the show coming up as

well.

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And as always, I appreciate any of the donations that come through.

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really helps the show and helps us continue to grow to an even greater audience.

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And talking about audience, you guys have been great with doing all the subscriptions over

on all the different platforms like Apple podcasts and Spotify.

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But if you haven't subscribed yet, I'm just going to ask you to head over to Spotify,

Apple podcasts or YouTube.

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or wherever you're listening or watching the show.

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And just hit us with a subscribe, hit us with a follow, whatever that specific outlet

does.

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That was probably a ping with somebody saying, hey, I subscribed to the show.

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I hope it was, but if it wasn't, I hope they're having a lovely day as well.

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But also, if you're over on your favorite listening app like Apple Podcasts and Spotify,

go ahead and drop us a comment, drop us a rating.

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And if you leave us a rating here on the show as well, I'll go ahead and I'll read it out

on the next show.

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I love hearing from you guys.

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I love hearing who you might want on the show.

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Love hearing about the feedback that you've gotten from the show, hearing about all

different entrance themes, and just having a great old time.

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I have a great time talking to people.

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I have a great time hearing your feedback.

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And I hope you have a great time listening to this awesome interview with the one and only

Russell and Flo, Josiah Williams.

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Enjoy, guys.

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Ladies and gentlemen, you know him as Wrestle and Flow.

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You've seen him all over the place in all different promotions.

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You've heard his voice all over the place.

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He is such the personality that not even Disney can deny.

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As you know, my guest today is Josiah Williams.

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Thank you so much for joining me today, my friend.

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Yo, I am so glad that we could finally make this happen.

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We've been like sending these messages back and forth and just the timing and all of it.

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But I always believe that everything happens in the right time.

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So thank you for allowing me to even be here.

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Absolutely.

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And it's one of these things where, you know, even though we hadn't gotten to connect

before, even though we've been trying to line this all up, it's just the more time goes

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on, the more cool things you do, the more people you work with, the more we just get to

talk about on the show.

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And as somebody that has been in the entrance-themed game probably even longer than I've

been in a lot of ways, you've been able to work with lots of different promotions, lots of

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different talent.

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The cool thing that I've always loved about your music also is the fact that you don't

just do entrance themes for people.

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You also do what I would call more like tribute things to wrestlers as well, which is

something that I don't see a lot of people doing.

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You know, I see Montese you doing it, I see you doing it, but you guys are really the two

that don't just do entrance themes, but you also do tributes in a lot of different

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wrestlers too.

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Yeah, yeah.

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I think that's how I got my start.

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Outside of just doing all this, I make hip hop music, Christian hip hop music, and in

between those projects, I wanted to do something that would kind of just clear my head and

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get me out of album mode or whatever the specific project was that I was doing.

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And yeah, I just started trying to remix hip hop songs that would have a wrestling theme

to it.

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I tried that.

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It didn't really work out.

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then I tried like actually remixing the theme song itself.

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And yeah, I didn't approach it from the perspective of being a theme and something that

they would necessarily walk down the ramp to, but just like showing some love.

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know, if you grew up with hip hop and especially like mixed tape hip hop and just how Lil

Wayne like in the:

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verse to it.

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It wasn't official, it was just fun.

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And I think

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wrestling, know, Megarann, Monteezy, like you said, there's a lot of people who were kind

of doing that.

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I just wanted to do it in a different way with like video elements and trying to do some

of that stuff too.

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So it's a fun time, man.

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I love it.

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And that's something too, is that you don't just do audio, and even over on your YouTube,

you're like it's an audio and visual experience.

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So you also understand how important the visuals are to the audio that you're putting out

too.

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Yeah, presentation, I mean, is everything.

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And especially in a world where everything is so fast paced and you're trying to give the

best product possible.

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felt like I had I had inspiration from smoke DZA in the beginning because he was releasing

these like mixed tapes around like WrestleMania time.

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And I'm like, man, what if I like what would be my version of that if I were to try to do

that?

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So I tried to just

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maybe package up six or seven music videos at once.

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And I was like, well, that's not gonna give me what I need, right?

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Like people are gonna watch those or maybe watch one and then they'll be done with it.

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But yeah, I figured adding the visual element, especially because I love storytelling and

I love being able to edit and try different things.

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And it wasn't even really that great in the beginning, but I just felt a connection to it

and a passion to it.

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It gives the talent also something to look at and like a little highlight reel or a

sizzle, you know, just to see what they've accomplished too.

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And that's the thing, that's where you start too.

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You were just like, I wasn't really the most experienced but I just started doing it.

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And I'm sure now you have way more experience with it too.

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And if anyone is going to your YouTube or anyone is seeing and hearing all the stuff

you've done, it's as pro as anything that anyone is putting out.

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And I think that's really important to a lot of people who talk about.

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Some people ask, how do you get into entrance themes?

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But more in general, how do you get into creating content?

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How do you get into creating music?

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How do you create videos, all that kind of stuff?

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You know, there's a lot of just trial and error.

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You can go to school for it, you can watch YouTube tutorials, but no matter what, you're

still gonna have a slightly different setup than other people.

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You may have different situations.

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You may have access to more gear, you may have access to less gear, less resources, but at

the end of the day, a lot of it really becomes trial and error and just sitting there and

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go, you know what?

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I'm gonna grind through all of those trials and tribulations and we're just gonna get

better at it.

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And then you're ending up seeing what works best for you and then making that work in the

best that you can too.

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Yeah.

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So I tell people all the time, these videos, like the Undisputed Era video was the first

one and that was in an apartment in Peoria, Illinois.

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And it was against like the like the little, what do you call those, the blinds, like the

sliding blinds ah with just like a random light and my camera on auto.

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Like I didn't know anything about, you know, ISO and aperture and all the camera settings

that make it what it's supposed to be.

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Like we just tried something and then I played around with some effects in Final Cut Pro.

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Like it was in no way anything professional.

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You know what mean?

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Like I probably did that and then went to go wash dishes immediately after before starting

to edit it.

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Like it's, it starts out as just an idea and I, and you know, especially at Disney now

with one of the areas that, the area that I work with is the Disney college program.

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And they asked, you know, what

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what are some tips and things that you would have for people who want to just start making

content even like at the park, at the parks and I'm saying use your phone and even just

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get like a cheap Amazon light that's like 15, 20 bucks and just see how much that little

light can change things.

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So, you know, at the end of the day, this is not homework.

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Nobody's going to grade it and it's not going to be on a record or anything.

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Like you're just trying stuff and if it works, it works.

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If it doesn't, you grow from it.

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So.

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I remember two things.

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One thing I heard early on in my career was that nobody cares about the gear you use.

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They care about what they see and what they hear.

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And it's so important too.

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you may have seen this as a meme or as on Twitter or X whatever, but Phineas, Billy

Eilish's brother, posts, know, everyone's like, why do you record in your bedroom?

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But I've also sat in million dollar studios where someone is figuring out why it doesn't

work and they just didn't plug in the aux cable.

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So, you know, it's totally true.

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And I remember when I was in college and I went to Guitar Center, not Guitar Center, Sam

Ash, because we were in Margate.

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And I remember that at that point I was trying to start getting on my own content and all

that.

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I was like, man, how much money am I going to have to put into all this?

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And the guy behind the counter was just like, look, look into lighting, look into natural

lighting, and get yourself a decent lighting system that doesn't have to break the bank.

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But you can literally do so much on your phone.

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And a lot of people don't understand that you can get expensive cameras.

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Sure, but you, like you said, you could use your iPhone.

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That's been kind of the case for the last 10 years of iPhone-ism.

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You can really get away getting good quality with that.

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And all you have to do is just make sure that your lighting is as strong as it can be.

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And then obviously over time, you upgrade based on what you want to do, but you can look

everywhere and you see professional videos done that say shot on an iPhone.

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And you're like, how do they do that?

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And you become a master of like those settings and different things.

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And I remember that when I started doing entrance themes,

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I had never even thought about doing entrance themes for, you know, until like 2019, maybe

:

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But before that, obviously I was such a fan of wrestling and I was starting to do like

covers and this was when NXT started to really take into bringing in Nakamura, some Bova

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Joa, those guys.

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And I was just like, I want to create a version that's kind of like a metal, orchestral

metal version of The Rising Sun.

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So I did that.

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I shot it in my studio, in my room, which anyone can obviously tell.

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And, you know.

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did a couple different takes, stitched it together, made the audio, and I thought it was

pretty good for what I had.

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And in that, I was able to meet Kevin from It Lives and Breathes, who's done it, Will

Ospreay's theme, we've gone on to work together, been able to meet just different people

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in the industry, and it's all just, the video did okay, the music did okay, but people are

still referencing it today, and it's just like, you just started by filming it and just

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figuring it out, and you never know where it's gonna take you.

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And that's the beauty of it.

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Like, especially for so many of us who legitimately just like started online at home,

trying anything to see if it would work and, seeing one, the connection that it makes with

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the audience that, you know, you're trying to reach to the, the impact that it has on the

talent that you're, that you're talking about and that you're playing for, you know what

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saying?

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Like it's, it's such a fulfilling.

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thing when you see it.

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And even if it doesn't reach that, you know, height, mean, for luckily for us and in many

other people's situations, it does turn into something and materializes into something.

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even just the satisfaction of you get that mix and you're like, man, this I'm proud of

this.

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Like, I don't know if anybody's gonna hear this, but there is just, it gives you

something.

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It's almost like when, you know, go into wrestling shows and you make that sign and

somebody like, hey, I like that sign.

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Like it's just,

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Well, thank you.

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It's just such a good feeling.

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And that's what I that's what I try to make with both the music and the video side.

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And then going back to what you said, too, of like, you start with something like the

phone, but and the investment that you make into your equipment.

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the goal, of course, is to be able to upgrade those things and hopefully to make that

money and to turn into something else.

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So it might start with the iPhone and then turn into a Sony or a Canon or whatever your

camera preference is.

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You know what mean?

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And

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Yeah, it's cool to see people, not just like us, but even just like illustrators and

stuff, be able to live that out.

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It's a special thing.

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What was that process like for you too?

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I know we've talked a bit about that creative process and you can kind of get to

experiment with a lot of different elements and what you have at your disposal.

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But for you, what was that turning point where you said, you know what, I need to look

into some different gear because you do a lot of different things in media and to be able

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to have access to those things gives you even more ability to work with other people, make

the content that you want to create.

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What was that turning point for you?

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Was it a specific project that you were working on or did you say, you know what,

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I want to kind go in this direction and in order to do that, this is where I now need to

get.

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Yeah, I don't even remember what microphone I had to start out with, but I know it was

garbage.

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I do know that.

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Like whatever it was, it produced sound.

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It just didn't produce good sound.

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And I can't see right now because I have a light in front of my face, but I'm sure you

might be using it looks like it the Shure like SM.

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I don't even remember what it's the Michael Jackson microphone.

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Yeah.

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version of that, yeah.

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There is like, somebody introduced me to that and I was like, okay, how am I gonna even

get that?

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And they gifted it to me and I'm like, okay, okay.

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So then I had to learn about like amplifying the sound and like what a cloud lifter is and

all these different things and it costs money, it did.

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But it was something that I knew and I believed that it would help me in the future.

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I had a Sony.

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A6300, which is a good photo camera, does pretty well with video, but like professionally,

it wasn't gonna get me everything that I needed.

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So after, I think this was after getting, yeah, after getting released from WWE, I started

working with Aleister Black, Malachi Black, Tommy N, whatever you prefer to call him.

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he like, he's like, yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna block in and just make a ton.

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of content and I knew that if we were gonna do this that it was time for an upgrade.

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So I had to, you know, make that decision and that camera was a hefty price tag.

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But I mean, you know what you need to get where you wanna be.

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And I believe that putting yourself in a situation to then generate the income or whatever

it is that you need to do to recoup, I felt like it was gonna work out.

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So.

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Am I going to go out and get a $10,000 cinema camera right now?

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Absolutely not.

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No.

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Can I afford some good $200 lights to make that great and like a smoke machine or

something?

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Yeah.

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So like you make, you make the changes that make the most sense and you make the changes

in the upgrades that are going to help the people, like the clients that you serve or like

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the people that you want to work with too.

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Of course, yeah.

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And you brought up working with Malachi Black and you brought up working with all the

stuff that he's doing and was doing and just all the things from where he is now and where

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he was.

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And, you know, we can talk rumors.

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I have no idea about anything.

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you know, but I do hope to see him back where he should be, which is on TV, because he is

so good.

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Yes.

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And how was it working with Malachi Black?

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Because he does the Muay Thai.

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He does all the videos.

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He does the clothing company.

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And you know, as dark of a character as he portrays on TV, in every interview, he just

seems like the coolest, most humble guy, just literally wants to just be a good person

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that can just kick you as hard as humanly possible and make you feel it.

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So.

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all of those things are true.

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So we started working while he was preparing for the comeback at WWE in 2021.

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No, yeah, like 2020, 2021 around that time.

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And he had some ideas that he wanted to pitch to Vince.

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So we just spent a few days at the Performance Center, just recording like matches and

promos and just trying stuff.

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This was also at the same time, like shortly before that, know, Zelina Vega left and came

back.

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I was like, it's so weird that nobody is recording this process of like, she's getting

ready to make this huge comeback.

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Why isn't there like a documentary team or anything like that?

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So I just started kind of getting to know both of them and filming them.

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yeah, it just turned into, it turned into a really cool process.

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And when, you know, when we both were on the other side, he was like, look,

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We, you know, I don't know where I'm going to go next.

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but I want to be able to prepare for that and I want to have content.

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So we, like you said, Muay Thai wrestling training.

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we did like some stuff with his clothing line, black mass.

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We tried, like some cooking content, podcasts stuff, music reviews.

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Like he had all these ideas and he's like, I don't know which ones we're going to keep.

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We did a short film that I didn't film, but I was like one of the characters in.

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He's he's so, he's a photographer.

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He's so creative and he's just like, let's just see what we can do.

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And so even like last week we were filming all these like training videos, like vlog style

stuff that I'm sure he'll be able to share at some point, like there's so much in his mind

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and it's kind of a reminder of like the stuff that I thought about, like for wrestling

flow, I want to be able to do all the stuff.

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How do I get there?

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And I'm thankful for both.

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him and Zelina for allowing me to kind of just be a little part of their content journey

and just, you know, supplying what they need.

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And it's amazing to work with them because everybody puts on a character, everybody

showcases what they want to showcase.

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As Disney would say on stage or as WW would say in the ring.

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But, you know, the superstars that they are doesn't even speak to the human beings that

they are.

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And so it's cool to see.

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And if I remember correctly too, I remember that you were also in the videos before

Malachi debuted in AEW.

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I forget if you were a doctor, but you were something in one of them.

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Yeah.

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was a really cool time.

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I got a message from him saying, I have this idea for a short film that I want to do.

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Would you be interested in it?

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And I think I told him no at first because, you know, I walk this very thin line of like,

who am I as both Josiah as the Christian hip hop artist, as the wrestling guy, like, OK,

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what do I want to do?

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And he just told me, like, no matter what I do,

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I will always protect you through it.

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I'm not gonna have you say anything that you don't wanna say.

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I'm not gonna have you wearing anything you don't wanna wear, even with all the black mask

stuff.

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We have very opposite beliefs, but he's like, I just want you to be able to grow in your

art.

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And of course I need the content.

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And so I think it's pretty cool.

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I always tell people I get to be the light in his darkness.

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were very different human beings, but similar interests.

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yeah, so that was just another cool example of like, we just tried something and it

really, really worked.

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And it was able to translate into like the, you know, how there are certain series in

movies where there's like a spinoff or like, you know, an alternate universe.

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And so when Buddy Matthews was able to do his thing, like that character had a little

prequel moment.

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So.

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There's a lot of cool stuff that came out of it and I'm just excited to create.

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Yeah, and I think you touch on something too that a lot of us as creators start to speak

to, and especially in wrestling too, because I've talked to Megarand about this, because

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Megarand does also content for kids and does stuff for wrestling.

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I run a music school and I'm in the podcasting industry too.

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And so it's kind of like, you get to this point where you have these different buckets

that you fill in your life and you want to really be true to all of them, but you're kind

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of like how far...

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Do I go into all those to where one thing doesn't negatively affect something else?

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know, especially when you work with kids or as you said, you have, you know, a lot of

faith that then can do a lot of different things.

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:

You know, it's like where, at what point do you kind of have to put a stop gap on it and

say, well, that may not impact this other thing in the way that I want it to.

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:

But the fact that, you know, I don't even have to call him, but the fact that Malachi,

I'll keep calling him.

280

:

because it's my favorite version, because Malachi was so cool with that and just wanted to

make sure that you were taken care of.

281

:

That's the most important thing, is let's be creative, let's have a good time, let's do

things and let's work together, but let's be respectful to each other too.

282

:

That's super cool.

283

:

Yeah, yeah.

284

:

And I think Megaran is a really perfect example of someone who can do a little bit of it

all, from gaming to music to even just like the stage presence that he has, video content,

285

:

streaming.

286

:

And I like to think that he is a perfect way of showcasing, like you can be who you are no

matter where you go.

287

:

And that's something that

288

:

I take to heart and which is why I look up to him a lot because like in all of these

different spaces, yes, I am Josiah, but like I have a different role to play and I don't

289

:

want to like you said, you know, mess up anything because I do this.

290

:

I don't want it to negatively affect that.

291

:

Everyone knows like my, had two goals, WWE and Sesame Street and somehow some way that I

want that all to work together.

292

:

And so yeah, I.

293

:

I like to think of these creative endeavors and things as I want to be able to grow in all

of them and do it in a way that's cool for everyone.

294

:

And I think you've continued to do that too.

295

:

And I mean, you have so many themes that, you know, you've had your name on it.

296

:

One of the ones that always comes to mind first when I think of you is Taya Valkyrie's

theme, right?

297

:

And obviously we'll talk about Jace O'Sai is the one that we worked on together too.

298

:

But Taya Valkyrie's theme was she left WWE as Frankie Monet, which I don't I don't know.

299

:

But when she came back as Taya Valkyrie, I was always such a fan of her and Lucha

Underground and...

300

:

No, again, anytime I get to shout out Lucha Underground in this show, I will, because I'm

just like, that was awesome.

301

:

And then to see her come back on Zicky Dice's show and then show up in AEW and see the

music that you had worked on for her, it was such a different vibe than I think a lot of

302

:

people had heard previously.

303

:

And Frankie Monet, obviously, was a different character, but even coming from like Lucha

Underground and just to see and hear the lyrics that you wrote and the music that you

304

:

wrote, kind of a little bit dubstep, hip hop, all those things.

305

:

What was the conversation with Taya about this is the theme that I'm putting together for

you?

306

:

Because I think one thing that I talked to different people in the theme writing space

about is I've always considered myself a composer from the fact of I will, if you ask me

307

:

to sit down and write something, mostly it's going to be a metal song or like a melodic

hardcore punk song.

308

:

Like that's kind of a style that sits well with me.

309

:

But a lot of the times the composer I'm like, you need a jazz track.

310

:

I'll do that.

311

:

You need an orchestra track.

312

:

I'll do that.

313

:

But.

314

:

You know, I feel like you have such a unique sound as wrestling flow that a lot of people

may come to you and be like, all right, cool.

315

:

Taya wants this, but here's the sound that I'm going to portray.

316

:

But ultimately at the end of the day, it is still what wrestling flow is.

317

:

What was some of the process of working with Taya on that?

318

:

So, she came to me and said that obviously she wanted to do a track and, coming out of the

NXT situation, we filmed a music video with her and the, artists who recorded her NXT

319

:

track.

320

:

I don't know if that, I don't think that music video ever came out, but it was just going

to be something for fun.

321

:

and I remember sitting there thinking like, okay, if we're going to, if we're going to try

to do something,

322

:

How can we live back up to that height?

323

:

Cause it was the cool music video from what I remember filming at the performance center.

324

:

And she said that she just wanted to take things like to the next level and for it to be

something that people really connected with.

325

:

And so I thought about like just, you know, revving the engine a little bit of like, okay,

so how can we like right from the jump, like give people one that sound that's immediately

326

:

recognizable, but also like

327

:

I want the song to feel like it's also taking you to the next level.

328

:

You, the talent walking to the ring and you, the audience of like, okay, what are we

getting ready to see?

329

:

so playing around with, like you said, the hip hop, the dubstep a little bit, like that

kind of like electro side, but also incorporating the drive, the literal like vehicular

330

:

sounds and everything.

331

:

Like I wanted to play off of that.

332

:

And so it was also her idea to do the music video and like she had the brain for it.

333

:

She said, I just want you to do your thing and I want people to visually see us like

taking off.

334

:

um And it was so fun.

335

:

I don't even remember.

336

:

I know Johnny was in some of the shots like that we filmed.

337

:

I have to go back and look.

338

:

Yeah.

339

:

But it was just such, it was such a cool time.

340

:

And she said, this is what I want, but I want you to have your creative freedom as well.

341

:

And I trust that, you you're gonna give me what I'm looking for.

342

:

And we were able to collaborate through the whole process.

343

:

Even in the music video, she's like, there's little things that I want you to do.

344

:

If you stand here, then I'll be able to move like this.

345

:

Like she saw it in every aspect.

346

:

And you don't always get that from people.

347

:

Sometimes people are just like, I want a song that sounds like kingdom.

348

:

You know, like I want that downstate track.

349

:

I'm like, okay, but that's kingdom works because it's Cody.

350

:

You know what I mean?

351

:

Cause it's downstate.

352

:

Like you, you have to find your own thing.

353

:

And she does and did a phenomenal job of like, this is my thing.

354

:

And this is what I want.

355

:

And it's trust you to bring it to life a little bit.

356

:

And it's so funny too, because you bring up Downstate and I'm grateful to call you and

Downstate friends at this point in our careers also.

357

:

And I talk to you guys all the time about what goes into an entrance theme.

358

:

And like I was saying, I kind come at these from a little bit of a different perspective.

359

:

And I've always felt like I strayed away from lyrics.

360

:

First off, because even though I have this deep voice that everyone is hearing now, I am

not a singer to any capacity.

361

:

So I always bring somebody in and...

362

:

for many of you who have heard me attempt to rap, it's an attempt, that's it, I won't even

use the word rap.

363

:

So like, you know, I bring in people that are really good at that stuff.

364

:

And for me, I was always just like, you know, a lot of songs don't need lyrics.

365

:

And my argument was, and kind of still is, you know, it's gonna get in the way of the,

like if you're on streaming, it's gonna get in the way of the announcers, it's gonna get

366

:

away with things like that.

367

:

But then I hear like what you guys are able to do.

368

:

so much in the Downstate tracks, in your tracks, in the Taya track, in the Trinity track,

in Jase's track.

369

:

And I'm just like, man, you know, I need to not do that.

370

:

Like I need to really focus in on that because the lyrics can really do a lot when it

comes to telling a great story.

371

:

And I feel like, you know, you can tell a story of where someone has gone in the case of

Taya's theme.

372

:

You're not so much painting this giant picture of her whole career.

373

:

You're just like explaining who the character is.

374

:

And I think that

375

:

Lyrically, it's more important than ever now actually in the industry to be able to have a

theme that can really describe where someone is coming from, not just from the music side,

376

:

but also from what the lyrics are trying to convey.

377

:

And most people know that when you're listening to music, a lot of what you're hearing is

in the vocals too, and lot of what you resonate with as humans is in the vocals.

378

:

So yeah, I think you knocked that one out for sure.

379

:

Thank you, man.

380

:

Yeah, it's a it's always really, really, really cool to tell that story.

381

:

Sorry.

382

:

And I think with wrestling flow, that was kind of my intention to like if you've never

seen wrestling, I want you to be able by the end of this one minute video or two minute,

383

:

whatever it is, to at least have a basic one on one level understanding of who this person

could be or who they once were, you know, whatever it is.

384

:

So I tried to do that same thing with Tyra.

385

:

Like if it's.

386

:

If somebody's watching and they don't know who you are or they don't know what this

version of your character is, I want them to have a good understanding of that by the time

387

:

they're done with the track.

388

:

Yeah, I agree with that.

389

:

And I think if you think of themes over time, earlier themes didn't always have to have

lyrics.

390

:

But nowadays, think because there's so many wrestlers and there's so many intricate

stories, being able to have more lyrically driven themes gives you the ability to really

391

:

separate people's careers.

392

:

Because as you said, you can go ahead and dive into this is where you were, this is where

you are, or you can just be a full descriptor of who this character is.

393

:

And no one is an even bigger embodiment of that.

394

:

than Trinity Naomi now who just wrestled Jade Cargill.

395

:

Naomi's great.

396

:

Naomi's always been great.

397

:

you know, I'm just so happy number one that she's getting her flowers now.

398

:

But I've said that many times over the years.

399

:

Like there are a lot of times where people underrate how good Naomi actually is.

400

:

And then she does all the things that everyone knows she could do.

401

:

And then people are like, Naomi's actually really good.

402

:

And I'm sitting here like, yeah, she is.

403

:

And she has been, she didn't just get good.

404

:

She's been good.

405

:

And

406

:

You know, for me, it was cool to see her move out of WWE for a little bit, do some stuff

over in TNA.

407

:

And you wrote that awesome theme for her too.

408

:

With Naomi, same question as with Taya Valkyrie, how did that come about?

409

:

And then in terms of how she wanted to have her song, what was some of the thought process

between you and her on rocking on that one?

410

:

Yeah, a bit more collaborative.

411

:

She came to me and said, I have this idea.

412

:

think she even said that she wanted to do some vocals for it from the beginning.

413

:

I want to be on this and I want to be a part of writing whatever we're going to do.

414

:

She said she wanted that kind of like Jersey club, that Lil Uzi Vert song.

415

:

can't think of what it's called right now, but it was super popular at the time.

416

:

And she's like, I want that sound and I want

417

:

because nobody in wrestling at that point had a beat that was very similar to that.

418

:

But she wanted something that was like an evolution of the glow as well.

419

:

So I'm like, all right, we can do that.

420

:

That's pretty easy.

421

:

And that's the first time that I think outside of Lio Rush that I've ever been in a studio

setting or like in the process with the talent.

422

:

And so we sat there and we came up with some ad libs and some fun little things and

423

:

I gave her a little preview of my verse.

424

:

said, this is what I'm going to do, but I want you to accent it.

425

:

she knew that she wanted to be able to spell her name and for the crowd to be able to pick

up on that.

426

:

think she also choreographed like to the name as well.

427

:

like, once again, it's so crazy to see how people are like this.

428

:

I know this is going to work.

429

:

I just need you to add some lyrics.

430

:

Like that's all I needed in this situation.

431

:

And it was amazing.

432

:

It's amazing, especially at that point in her life where, you know, when you go through

something and you're looking to find that joy again, and you're just trying to get to the

433

:

other side of it, to be able to be a part of that and to help bring that to life while

also being the light that someone needs, there's no greater joy than

434

:

seeing that debut or that return and in her case, debut, TNA and just the pure love and

passion that came when she made that entrance.

435

:

It was so, so, so cool.

436

:

And so I'll always be thankful to her.

437

:

We've made, this is the third song that I've done for her.

438

:

But, you know, I always love telling her story and I'll tell it as many times as I need

to.

439

:

Yeah, and it deserves to be told too, you know, and I think that with someone who is such

a veteran in Naomi Trinity, we'll use Naomi now because of where we are in this timeline,

440

:

but with her, she's gone through so much.

441

:

She's been part of the industry for so long.

442

:

And I think that when you have that kind of tenure in one company, a lot of people don't

expect you to do something else.

443

:

You know, you can think of everyone.

444

:

You could think of Mercedes Monet, Sasha Banks, you know, you can think of Trinity.

445

:

You can think of all these different people who...

446

:

end up trying to be with one company for so long.

447

:

And sometimes you have to leave to explore that other part.

448

:

And with Trinity, I don't think that she ultimately needed to go somewhere else to get

better, but I do think that when she left, she was able to spread those wings a little bit

449

:

more.

450

:

And like you said, showcase, hey, I'm not just good here, I'm good wherever I go.

451

:

And I think coming back into WWE, it really helped showcase.

452

:

even more of who she is.

453

:

And like you said, she's somebody that also mixes the visual with the aural.

454

:

And so she knows, okay, cool, what I'm gonna do for my entrance, the music has to hit with

that.

455

:

And you have a lot of talent who may just want a really cool theme, which is fine, but

then you have a lot of other talent too who may have done TV before, who may be in

456

:

elements where they know that side of production, where they're like, all right, cool,

here's exactly what I'm gonna do.

457

:

Here's the gear I'm gonna wear in her case, being able to have all the glow stuff that she

does, did all that kind of stuff.

458

:

You know, she knows what she's going for.

459

:

She knows what she needs.

460

:

And it's really cool when she can articulate that to you and be like, all right, cool.

461

:

We're gonna have the slow part of my name here, and then it's gonna speed up.

462

:

It's gonna rev up, and then we're into it.

463

:

And the rest is history.

464

:

So I love that.

465

:

I love it too.

466

:

And I'm just, I'm so happy for like, Trin, we love you.

467

:

Phenomenal.

468

:

Absolutely.

469

:

And then we worked on a theme a while ago for Jso Say, and I'm going to keep getting his

name wrong.

470

:

I'm pronounce it a bunch of different times, a bunch of different ways.

471

:

you know, with that theme, that was one that when I sent it to you, you were just like,

this is really cool, but it's not something I've done before.

472

:

And I was like, yeah, it's not a style I've done before either.

473

:

It's a style, I guess, called grime from the UK.

474

:

And it's a cool kind of blend of different styles using different instruments.

475

:

For me, when I sent it to you, I'm just like Josiah can do anything.

476

:

Okay, he's going to knock it out of the park as he did.

477

:

But when I wrote it, I was just like, okay, I want to make sure that there's a beat.

478

:

want to make sure that it's got a little bit of this glitchy kind of feel, but it's a

little bit slower paced too.

479

:

So it's fast while it's slow, but there's all these other instruments going on.

480

:

And then you were able to layer in that ready for war.

481

:

And I'm just like, it's perfect.

482

:

It's exactly what it is.

483

:

So the gang vocals did very, very well.

484

:

For you, I'd love to hear a little bit from you about, you know, because this is kind of

like us talking about, we workshopped this one together.

485

:

How was it when I sent you that one and you were just like, what is this theme that we're

doing?

486

:

Don't know.

487

:

That's exactly what it was.

488

:

That's the word for it.

489

:

Yeah, it's different when I'm watching any of the shows and I see somebody that I'm like,

man, I want to create something based off of this person.

490

:

And I have that drive to do it.

491

:

I'm able to, I know the story or I at least know what I want to do.

492

:

in this situation, obviously it's like, okay, I'm not as familiar with this person or

sometimes like not at all familiar with this person.

493

:

So that gives me a chance to do a little bit of a deep dive.

494

:

But if you add that layer into also, so you're not familiar, but you're also like, you

don't use this style.

495

:

You're not similar.

496

:

You're not used to this style.

497

:

So it was like a two for one.

498

:

I'm like, okay, all right, let's see what we can do.

499

:

But

500

:

I always believe that any challenge is worth at least trying.

501

:

And if it doesn't work, it doesn't work.

502

:

And somebody else will get their moment.

503

:

I think I was ready for the challenge, and I wanted to be able to tell that story.

504

:

I was able, we were able to do something that neither one of us had done yet.

505

:

And I think it elevated us at that time to be able to like, all right, so what's next?

506

:

What are we going to do?

507

:

So I'm thankful.

508

:

that I even had a chance to be able to do that with you and hopefully it's the first of

many more.

509

:

Absolutely, yeah.

510

:

And it's one of those rise to the occasion kind of things too.

511

:

I think all of us will always have that parent style that we talked about.

512

:

And you'll always have that thing that you feel comfortable doing.

513

:

And when a talent comes to you or someone says, hey, I want to go in this direction, I

want to do this, you can either say, you know what?

514

:

This is not something I'm comfortable with.

515

:

And you have to also kind of know how comfortable you feel being uncomfortable and how

comfortable you feel going into that unknown and being like, all right, what can we do?

516

:

just kind of jumping in head first and being like, all right, cool, no preconceived

notions, no anything else, how can we really create what we want to create here?

517

:

And I feel like with both of us, we both went into it with that.

518

:

And for me, and I'm sure for you too, whenever you hear a talent go, my God, this is

amazing, this is great, I'm so jazzed, I'm so amped about it, it just makes you feel happy

519

:

too.

520

:

And then when you see it being used, you're like, even better.

521

:

And for me, with me not being as familiar with that style going and giving something,

522

:

to both you and him being able to see how excited everybody was about it.

523

:

I was like, wow, that's really cool.

524

:

And here I was sitting being like, you I don't know how we're going to go ahead and do

this, but we did it.

525

:

And it sounds cool.

526

:

And he's still using it to this day, which, you know, for longevity sake, I'm always very

happy about that.

527

:

And I actually want to tie back to Trinity for a second too, because you said you've

worked on multiple themes with her.

528

:

And I think that's really important to...

529

:

have been able to have done too.

530

:

use a lot of the work that I've done with Mercedes Martinez.

531

:

We've worked on a couple of her post-WWD videos together.

532

:

Yeah, she's so good.

533

:

She's so great.

534

:

And like even outside of wrestling, she's just literally like the nicest person, one of

the coolest people.

535

:

And you know, I always hate doing that because I feel like I'm burying the fact that she's

just a killer in the ring.

536

:

But dude, she's great.

537

:

She is.

538

:

And being able to be somebody that's worked on multiple themes for one talent or a couple

of talents, it becomes one of these things where it's like your sound goes with them.

539

:

If you think about, I'm going to get his name wrong, but Warren, who did like DX, the

voice for DX, right?

540

:

He then went and did Triple H's theme, right?

541

:

Went before he did the game and everything.

542

:

And it's just cool to be able to say like, there's that little tie in that little

connection between this person worked here, now it's here.

543

:

It takes that evolution to the next level.

544

:

You know that talent from the previous theme, from the previous part of the evolution, so

you get the opportunity to take some of those things and move them in as well.

545

:

I think it's really special.

546

:

Yeah, yeah, I love that.

547

:

I think that's a really, really good point.

548

:

I even think about when Edge at the time, you know, when he started the Judgment Day and

he was able to use, why is the band's name escaping me right now?

549

:

Alter Bridge.

550

:

Yeah.

551

:

And so like just how the character evolves, but still being able to hear a piece of that

sound.

552

:

I thought that was so, so cool.

553

:

Like,

554

:

And so yeah, there are certain people that I hope to continue being part of their journey.

555

:

But I also, I'm one of those people who I don't want just my voice to be the only voice on

the show.

556

:

You know what I mean?

557

:

So I'm glad that I have opportunities, but I'm also glad that it's not just over-saturated

or that, there's so much talent.

558

:

I think AEW does a really good job of showcasing in the past of like,

559

:

There's so many other rappers that talk about wrestling and there's so many people who are

on the metal side and ruckus is even brought in people who do like orchestra based things,

560

:

right?

561

:

There's music is so big that you can go in all types of different directions.

562

:

And I think, I think wrestling is at a point now where there's too many opportunities to

just have the one guy or like the three guys or whatever.

563

:

So

564

:

I love it, and I think that we all in different aspects are able to have like a little

piece of the puzzle.

565

:

And it's just cool to see.

566

:

Yeah, and I think Mikey Ruckus is somebody who, you you bringing him up, is somebody that

is not even afraid to tap onto different people too.

567

:

You know, I've been grateful to work on Sting's theme, not Sting's theme, but when they

did the Sting EP for his retirement, me and Roy ended up working on the Surfer Sting

568

:

theme.

569

:

And there have been a couple of my works and your works that have gone through AEW.

570

:

And it's so weird to say that because it's kind of like they have a guy, they have the guy

who does it.

571

:

And yet,

572

:

he'll reach out to people and be like, hey, can I get you on this?

573

:

Or if you've worked on something for somebody, if all of a sudden him and Tony approve it,

then all of a sudden it's up on the show.

574

:

It's just cool to be able to see, like you said, wrestling being in this landscape now, to

where there is that collaboration, a lot of reaching across the aisle and saying, hey,

575

:

could I do it all on my own?

576

:

Sure.

577

:

But I don't.

578

:

And I do end up saying, hey, having more talent and having more people involved in the

industry,

579

:

You know, and even you did Willow Nightingale on Who We Are, which is, again, just a

banger track there too, and Willow's awesome.

580

:

But being able to see those opportunities show up and be able to grow the people that are

able to, you know, put music into the wrestling ecosystem, that can't be understated.

581

:

Now, I know that I told you that there was one question at the end that I ask everybody,

and for those listeners, you know what the question is.

582

:

If you could choose three songs to put on a Spotify playlist that represent Josiah

Williams,

583

:

What would those three songs be?

584

:

And they don't just have to be songs that you've released.

585

:

They could be anything from throughout the ecosystem.

586

:

Now I say three, some people have given me five, someone gave me six, someone gave me

their whole discography, but I think three is a nice solid number.

587

:

So.

588

:

yeah, okay.

589

:

Well, so I'm gonna play it a little bit differently and not use my own, em but there are a

few tracks that have stuck with me just throughout my time on Earth.

590

:

So, Broken Dreams, Drew McIntyre's theme song.

591

:

I believe the band's name is either Shayman's Harvest, I'm hoping I'm pronouncing it

correctly, but.

592

:

The Broken Dreams theme song to me was everything.

593

:

It told the story, but it had the power.

594

:

It matched the character perfectly.

595

:

No notes, I would change absolutely nothing about the song.

596

:

And WWE did a really good job of like, okay, they like this.

597

:

Let's hold onto it.

598

:

Let's not give it to them right away.

599

:

Like let's make them search the internet even though we know it's not there and try to,

you know.

600

:

They played it so perfectly and when it did eventually drop, like I listened to it at

least six trillion times in a row back to back.

601

:

I love that.

602

:

I love that 100%.

603

:

So that one on the more modern era side, I am going to say Sting's theme from AEW.

604

:

so powerful.

605

:

So we had the first ever AEW music live performance and Ruckus obviously headlined that.

606

:

I got to open up for him, but hearing even just in the rehearsal, like, dun, dun, dun,

dun, I was like, it's happening.

607

:

my gosh, it's happening.

608

:

It is such a powerful theme to me.

609

:

One that I will always love and just, I haven't had a chance to even talk to him about

like,

610

:

creating that and know, whatever, but so cool.

611

:

And then voices for Randy Orton.

612

:

Jim Johnson just hearing there's a video where he talked about like him playing it just

like on acoustic and you know, coming up with the lyrics and what he was going to do for

613

:

it.

614

:

And so knowing that he just had this acoustic track and that somebody was able to take

that and turn it into even more than what he envisioned it to be like that's just, I don't

615

:

know.

616

:

That's special.

617

:

And I think even now, what, Randy's 20 something years in, and when he goes, whether it's

overseas or here domestically, when they hear that theme song, one, they lose their minds.

618

:

And then after that comes, it's not even a calm down.

619

:

They just, it goes from the crowd pop straight into now we're singing this together.

620

:

And this is gonna be a moment for each and every one of us.

621

:

And it's almost louder than the crowd pop itself.

622

:

That is special and I will always believe whether he is a face or a heel, that song plays

perfectly no matter where you are.

623

:

those are the three.

624

:

because if you watch that video where Jim Johnson is talking about, I wrote it on acoustic

guitar, you can understand 100 % where he's coming from, like that whole brooding kind of

625

:

like, that dark acoustic kind of vibe.

626

:

You could totally see where he's coming from and it would have worked.

627

:

But then when you hear what Rev Theory did and they expanded it into the track that it

was, like this heavy driving track and everything, it's just, you can't envision anything

628

:

better.

629

:

for Randy Orton.

630

:

think there was a report that came out a while ago that was like, someone tried and he was

like, Nope.

631

:

So I mean, that's not even talking bad about anybody else.

632

:

It's just, you got the theme.

633

:

That's the theme, that's the theme.

634

:

But yeah, those are, yeah.

635

:

they've released like a 20, I don't even know, like a 20 year anniversary version of the

song where it's like has even more drive, which I didn't know was possible.

636

:

They also did like a dubstep theme that, and all this is just on Spotify.

637

:

I don't know if they're ever going to use it for anything, but like, I even listened to

those and, and they're different layers of the same song.

638

:

And I could see how that would still be able to tell his story in Ring.

639

:

It's just special to me, man.

640

:

It's amazing to see.

641

:

Yeah, I love that.

642

:

you know, those three songs, I'm just like, man, those are good choices.

643

:

You choose such great things.

644

:

You do such great things.

645

:

And that's why I'm happy that we were able to sit down for a little bit and have you on

the show.

646

:

It's been such an awesome time chatting with you, my friend.

647

:

And you know, this will be the first of many, obviously.

648

:

And I'm just excited to have been able to chat with you for a little bit.

649

:

So thank you so much for coming on the show.

650

:

Man, it is an honor and I truly do thank you.

651

:

I'm sorry that we didn't make this happen earlier, but like I said, now is the perfect

time.

652

:

And I'm going to say this before we close this interview.

653

:

Hopefully, if everything goes right by the end of even just a couple of months from now or

like into the fall, we should probably do this again because there's going to be some fun

654

:

things, hopefully, that we can have another fun conversation about pretty soon.

655

:

Absolutely, I would love to.

656

:

Yeah, let's make it happen.

657

:

Of course.

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About the Podcast

Ropes N Riffs
Join John Kiernan, wrestling entrance theme song composer, and professional musician of over 10 years for stories and interviews with your favorite wrestlers, rock stars, and personalities!
About The Host:
John Kiernan is a wrestling entrance theme song composer with over 150 themes written for wrestlers in various promotions such as NJPW, WWE, ROH, MLW, and many more. As a professional musician, a veteran in the podcasting space, an avid pro wrestling fan and wrestling personality by way of creating the soundtracks for your favorite wrestlers, John Kiernan forges his latest podcasting venture into diving into stories of music, stories from the road, and wrestling from all walks of life from your (and his) favorites of all time.
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