Episode 16

Ben Eller on Playing with Mastodon, Retro Entrance Music, Tool's Adam Jones on Penta Entrance Theme

Published on: 26th May, 2025

Hi guys! I, your resident wrestling entrance theme composer John Kiernan interviews the one and only Uncle Ben, Ben Eller! Ben is a guitarist known for his recent performance with Mastodon and his unbelievable YouTube guitar channel.

We discuss Ben's recent experience playing with Mastodon, the challenges of learning their songs, and the evolution of the band's music. The conversation also delves into the influence of wrestling in the South, 80's and 90's wrestling, Ben's early memories of wrestling, and the significance of entrance themes in wrestling. We also explore the creative process behind writing themes, the impact of memorable wrestling themes, and Ben's approach to teaching guitar and inspiring students. In this engaging conversation, Ben Eller and I delve into the world of wrestling, music, and the intersection of creativity and technology.

We discuss Adam Jones of Tool playing on WWE Penta and Rey Fenix's entrance themes, the return of CM Punk to WWE, the significance of entrance themes in wrestling, and the evolving role of AI in music creation. Your dynamic duo of this episode emphasize the importance of authenticity in both music and wrestling, while also exploring the representation of female guitarists in the industry.

We also built a hypothetical WrestleMania card featuring iconic guitarists, showcasing their passion for both music and wrestling. Enjoy!

-

🔔Subscribe To The Show! https://www.youtube.com/@ropesnriffs?sub_confirmation=1

Email me! ropesnriffspodcast@gmail.com

Follow Ropes N Riffs on social media:

🤘Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ropesnriffs

🤘 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ropesnriffs

🤘X: https://www.x.com/ropesnriffs

💰Support the show via PayPal! https://paypal.me/ropesnriffs

📣$10 or more will get you shouted out on the next episode!


📹 I use Riverside.FM to record and edit my shows!

• Sign up today: https://riverside.fm/?utm_campaign=campaign_2&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_source=rewardful&via=john-kiernan


Listen to Ropes N Riffs wherever you listen to podcasts! Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Pandora, iHeartRadio, and more!


🎧Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3upFt8nCe2ONsS29jtjzA0?si=81198fdfdfe84019

🎧Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ropes-n-riffs/id1781702913


About The Show:

Do you like wrestling? Do you like music and stories from the road? Join John Kiernan, wrestling entrance theme song composer, and professional musician of over 10 years for stories and interviews with your favorite wrestlers, rock stars, and personalities!


About the Host:

John Kiernan is a wrestling entrance theme song composer with over 150 themes written for wrestlers in various promotions such as NJPW, WWE, ROH, MLW, and many more. As a professional musician, a veteran in the podcasting space, an avid pro wrestling fan and wrestling personality by way of creating the soundtracks for your favorite wrestlers, John Kiernan forges his latest podcasting venture into diving into stories of music, stories from the road, and wrestling from all walks of life from your (and his) favorites of all time.


#music #wrestling #ropesnriffs #johnkiernan

Transcript
Speaker:

Welcome to this episode of the Ropes and Riffs Podcast.

2

:

This is Jon Kiernan, Wrestling Entrance Theme Song Composer.

3

:

You may remember me from such interviews as AEW's Mercedes Martinez.

4

:

The one and only Marty Friedman.

5

:

the one and only entrance song king, Montese, Josiah Williams, Eric Young, and many more

of your favorite musicians and wrestlers.

6

:

on today's episode, I'm gonna be interviewing Uncle Ben himself, Ben Eller.

7

:

You may know Uncle Ben for his recent stint at his show with Mastodon.

8

:

You may know him from his time on YouTube teaching all different levels of guitar, all

different shapes and sizes, and all different kinds of styles.

9

:

Ben Eller is a good friend of mine, and I'm so excited that he was able to come on the

show here.

10

:

So I hope you enjoy our conversation where we talk about 80s and 90s wrestling entrance

themes, who some of our favorite wrestlers are, talk all about guitar.

11

:

So for you guitar and music nerds out there, this is an episode for you and so much more.

12

:

If you like what you hear, think about subscribing to the show over here on YouTube,

Spotify, Apple, and if you really like the show, feel free to leave us a comment and a

13

:

review.

14

:

If you leave a comment and review about the show, we'll go ahead and read it on the show.

15

:

anyone who drops a donation of $10 or more over on PayPal, R-O-P-E-S, the letter N,

R-I-F-F-S, that's Ropes and Riffs.

16

:

You'll also get a shout out on the show.

17

:

I've kept you waiting long enough, so enjoy this episode and a great conversation with the

one and only Uncle Ben, Ben Eller.

18

:

Uncle Ben.

19

:

How you doing today, Ben Eller?

20

:

kids, it's your good buddy Uncle Ben.

21

:

Thanks so much for having me on the show, dude.

22

:

I feel like we've been trying to line this up for a long time.

23

:

We've had schemes and plots working against us.

24

:

The guitar Illuminati, the guitar Minotti infiltrated Knoxville last week and set up a

power surge from my studio that destroyed a bunch of stuff.

25

:

They were trying to shut us down, but look at us now.

26

:

Here we are.

27

:

Who'd thought?

28

:

Look at us.

29

:

But I like how we talk about all that and then you're just like, yeah, you know, a week or

two ago, you know, sorry, I couldn't do it.

30

:

I was just with mastodon.

31

:

That's a thing.

32

:

that old thing.

33

:

I don't know if you saw that or not, but you know, just doing stuff.

34

:

Had a gig, you know, I had a show.

35

:

Dude, it was so cool.

36

:

was looking up like, you know, obviously they're like, Ben's playing with Mastodon.

37

:

It's like, my God.

38

:

And I think the actual first time that I heard that you were doing it was through Metal

Socks.

39

:

And it was like, look at this.

40

:

And it's just like, wait, Ben Eller, of course it's that Ben Eller, but you're always just

like, is it that Ben Eller?

41

:

And then it shows up.

42

:

It's you and you're just ripping on stage with the man.

43

:

It's so, it was so cool to see.

44

:

So congrats to that.

45

:

Thank you very much.

46

:

I appreciate that.

47

:

And it was really a dream gig and a, ultimate honor.

48

:

Cause I've been obsessed with that band for so long.

49

:

So it was pretty surreal experience.

50

:

And dude, I'll tell you this.

51

:

was so fun being there, like on the scene, watching stuff unfold, right?

52

:

Because basically the announcement of Brent's departure happened like after we touched

wheels in the Dominican Republic, like right as the plane landed, I opened up my phone and

53

:

it's like, there's the news, you know,

54

:

And I had all my friends and stuff text me.

55

:

like, dude, did you see that prints out of the band?

56

:

Did you see Brent left the band?

57

:

Holy shit.

58

:

Who do you think they're going to get to replace him?

59

:

Who's it going to be?

60

:

Who's it going to be?

61

:

And I'm like, Whoa, that's crazy.

62

:

You know?

63

:

And then it was like the, I think it was like the next day.

64

:

Cause we played the last day of the fest.

65

:

The next day people were sending me all the speculation.

66

:

And then like the next day after that, I guess somebody on the beach spotted me at sound

check.

67

:

Cause the stage was like right on the beach.

68

:

And so we were doing sound check early in the morning and like a couple of people lined up

on the beach, you know, and we're taking photos and stuff and it kind of got leaked.

69

:

It's like possible Ben Eller sighting at tool in the sand.

70

:

It was just really cool watching the breadcrumbs get dropped and then it's like, boom,

there it is.

71

:

It sounds like such things that happen in wrestling where it's like, this person signed

and then the dirt sheets have it for a while and they're like, they're backstage at raw or

72

:

AEW.

73

:

they didn't show up today.

74

:

they were backstage, but nothing happened.

75

:

And then all of sudden they show up and you're like, what happened?

76

:

This is crazy.

77

:

I'm telling you man, like the sleuth work of the internet is truly incredible.

78

:

Those are some Carmen San Diego kids out there for sure.

79

:

And I liked too how you had to kind of play it coy.

80

:

my god, this happened and especially for you too with all the videos you've done.

81

:

You've done a lot on Mastodon too through the years about like, playing this riff and

playing this riff.

82

:

you you look through the internet, you search Mastodon guitar and things like that.

83

:

Obviously everyone in Mastodon over the years has just been a phenomenal player,

phenomenal music.

84

:

If you're, you know, if you're listening to this podcast, you're probably a fan of

Mastodon already.

85

:

If you're not, please go check out any record in their catalog and you're going to get.

86

:

just some amazing music.

87

:

But for you, you have a lot of these chops for the Macedon stuff already kind of even

going into the gig.

88

:

But the video that you did highlighting the experience, you were like, man, I only had a

couple of days to do it.

89

:

And it was literally listen to it, play through it, wait till I mess up, play through it

again, get to that same spot, and then kind of dive through.

90

:

It was cool to hear about like the process of you getting into the Macedon gig too.

91

:

yeah, that's the behind the scenes stuff that that nobody knows, you know, like I saw a

lot of people being like, ah, you know, Ben loves mass on he probably knew all these songs

92

:

already.

93

:

I really did not like out of that set list, which is a 17 song set, but I learned 20

something songs and we narrowed it down from there.

94

:

I mean, I probably knew, you know, by heart, maybe four of them and the rest, was just

like, frantically learn this stuff as fast as you can, as accurate as you can.

95

:

And it was a real challenge, man.

96

:

Thankfully, I had earlier that year done the Shiprock gig, right?

97

:

Me and Andy Wood and our drummer, Andy Campbell, we do these crazy rock cruise gigs and

all that where we're sort of the core of the house band of the main event, which is called

98

:

the Stowaways, which is kind of this all star jam band kind of thing where, you know, we

choose different members of different bands that are on the cruise and we all do like a

99

:

one time only cover song together.

100

:

And then the next song is a different line up and the next song is a different line up.

101

:

It's a ton of fun.

102

:

It's one of the most cool things I get to do every year.

103

:

Uh, but it involves learning, you know, 50, 60 songs, which I had just done on guitar and

bass to make sure it was all covered in case somebody had to cancel or whatever.

104

:

So I had just been, you know, doing this marathon cram session anyway.

105

:

So I think my brain was already kind of in that mode of, you know, uh, transcribing,

learning, memorizing, cause you know how it is, man, you're a player too.

106

:

It's like,

107

:

If you don't use those muscles, they atrophy, you know, I don't know if you've gone like a

long time between gigs and learning material and memorizing it, but man, if you've not

108

:

done it, like I remember coming out of COVID, right?

109

:

When we had no gigs, some of those first gigs I had coming back, dude, it took a while to

dust it off, you know, to get those, those memorization chops back and those transcription

110

:

chops back.

111

:

So thankfully I'd kind of already been in that sort of, you know,

112

:

cram for material mode because of shiprock.

113

:

So then when that fell in my lap, it's like OK, I'm ready.

114

:

Now here's a question for you too, because obviously you've learned lots of mass that are

over the years.

115

:

There were songs that you didn't know.

116

:

You know, when it comes to the songs that you did know, you know, I, I know a lot of bands

that when you do sessions for them, when I've done sessions for them, it's like, okay,

117

:

cool.

118

:

Well, here's how it's really played as opposed to the way that you kind of heard it.

119

:

The thing that's always been great about you is how so guitar centric you are, like watch

any of your videos here, any of the ways that you talk, you're really as dialed in, I

120

:

think as possible to.

121

:

you.

122

:

everything from what string you're using and even if you're just like there's a fingering

that you wouldn't usually think to use because you could just do it this way we're

123

:

probably he probably did it this way or she did it this way because that's the way that

you hear it on the record for you when you go into Mastodon and you're playing things the

124

:

way that you learn them is there a conversation with them like hey this is like really

close but here's that extra like 1 % to make it as accurate as possible or were you pretty

125

:

much like on you were so you you had that conversation too

126

:

yeah, yeah, absolutely.

127

:

Because I want to make sure I'm doing this stuff as accurately as possible.

128

:

Cause that's what the fans are there to see, you know?

129

:

And especially, especially for that time period with the band, you know, coming out of

this relationship they had with Brent Hines, who is a legend, one of my favorite players,

130

:

one of the most important players in metal of the past 20 something years, right?

131

:

You know, that's a big leap of faith for the fans to be like, how's the band going to

carry on with somebody else, whoever it may be.

132

:

So I kind of felt a responsibility myself to be like,

133

:

Don't worry, whoever steps up is still gonna play this stuff accurately.

134

:

The songs are gonna sound the way that you're familiar with.

135

:

Well, a little different, obviously.

136

:

I'm not Brent, nobody is.

137

:

So it was important for me to put the faith in the fans, to restore faith in the fans, and

also to pay respect to the music.

138

:

Because to me, this is music I've been a fan of for 20-something years now.

139

:

And so for me, it was very important to honor the material.

140

:

And you're talking about so many records too.

141

:

Like Mastodon's a band that record to record, you can tell it's Mastodon, but you can hear

a definite difference between like March of the Fire Ants, Colony of Birchmen and

142

:

everything in between and after, you know?

143

:

So it's one of those things where it's like, you know, there are some bands where...

144

:

You're like, all right, cool.

145

:

This is this.

146

:

get this.

147

:

This guitarist always does this.

148

:

And this is kind of the style that they do.

149

:

Like for me, I'll listen to an August Burns Red record.

150

:

I listened to all of them.

151

:

I love August Burns Red, but you listen to August Burns Red and you're like, Hey, if you

liked Constellations or you liked all of these other ones, you're probably going to feel

152

:

pretty similar on all of them.

153

:

That's not a dig.

154

:

That's just, Hey, some bands have that other bands go, Hey, we want to have different

things that we do on different records.

155

:

So for you, you're kind of not even learning like.

156

:

one band.

157

:

You're learning different years of the band and almost it feels like you're learning

different styles altogether, I'm sure.

158

:

No, you're exactly right.

159

:

And that's a great way to look at it.

160

:

It's like it really is like learning different eras, you know, of the same band.

161

:

And the cool thing with that group too is, know, everybody, everybody writes in that

group.

162

:

So the songs that Brent wrote feel different under your hands than the songs that Bill

wrote.

163

:

And people don't even know in that band how much stuff Braun, the drummer, writes.

164

:

He writes a lot of stuff in his riffs feel nothing like Brent's riffs or Bill's riffs or

Troy's riffs.

165

:

So it is really interesting, it's really fun, but that's part of why I like the challenge

so much, because it isn't that I already know exactly how this is gonna lay out on the

166

:

neck, I know how this is gonna go, it's always something different that keeps you at

attention.

167

:

That's something I've always really enjoyed about that band, yeah.

168

:

And yeah, you're right, man, all those little things like making sure you're playing stuff

on the right string set, is this an open string or a fretted note, all that stuff really

169

:

matters to me, so I really like digging into the minutia there.

170

:

And I love that too.

171

:

I love how much of a focus you have to it.

172

:

you know, knowing you for as long as we've been friends here and as long as we've been,

yeah, it's, it's crazy.

173

:

I can't even put a finger on it, but I know it was like, I think NAMM 15 that we had gone

to.

174

:

And it was like right before then.

175

:

Yeah.

176

:

It's super cool.

177

:

And something like that.

178

:

Isn't it crazy?

179

:

Our hair and our faces are still pretty good.

180

:

I'd say.

181

:

I look at those locks, dude.

182

:

We still got it.

183

:

We still got it.

184

:

love it.

185

:

And through that time, obviously, there's been the constant conversations of guitar,

constant conversations of all different styles.

186

:

You basically go, hey, man, check out Brad Paisley and me being like, this is a nightmare

to play.

187

:

I love this.

188

:

This is crazy.

189

:

All the way into, you know, talking about some of the wrestling stuff too, as we are ropes

and ropes, we got to talk about wrestling.

190

:

you know, for me, the times that I had really heard you talk about wrestling were on

191

:

you know, dead and lovely with you and Hollywood Steve talking all the horror stuff on the

podcast that you were doing.

192

:

And it was like, you guys would always drop the references to the older stuff, which you

got to talk about.

193

:

And I always loved the fact of like, you know, someone like me who's still so like about

what products are out now and being like, my God, cool.

194

:

This and that like, Hey guys, remember tool had, or Penta had tools, Adam Jones do the

recent theme, which is super cool.

195

:

But yeah, and we got to dive into that a little bit too, cause that's

196

:

that's some crazy stuff, but just being able to like hear you guys talking all the way

about like wrestling from the eighties.

197

:

And it sounds like from when you were younger, you were really into wrestling much earlier

in your life too.

198

:

yeah, definitely.

199

:

Yeah.

200

:

And you're right, man.

201

:

Me and old Hollywood Steve back in the dead lovely days would wax poetic about old school

wrestling stuff all the time because you know, we both grew up here in the South and East

202

:

Tennessee and you really can't get away from wrestling.

203

:

Now, now back then, you know, in the late eighties, early nineties, it was still a little

bit more niche.

204

:

You know, once we hit kind of the attitude era and everything really blew up, it became a

lot more common, but

205

:

Back in the day, it was still a little bit more niche, but being in the South, just you

couldn't get away from it.

206

:

know, Smokey Mountain Wrestling had a huge presence here, so you'd see all the Smokey

Mountain Flyers everywhere.

207

:

And yeah, I don't know.

208

:

It's just it's just good old boys stuff, you know.

209

:

Oh yeah, yeah.

210

:

Southern, I don't think people realize how much resonance wrestling has in the South, you

know?

211

:

And it's one of those things where you have so many of like the biggest talents that would

do all the territories down there.

212

:

And you know, you're talking about, I mean, in New York, obviously you had, you know, WWF

and WWWF and things like that, but like the South, think is always really where wrestling

213

:

will have that stronghold.

214

:

That's still real to me, that whole thing.

215

:

It's like, you know,

216

:

A lot of the best guys came from down there too.

217

:

know, Dusty down in Georgia and all that kind of stuff.

218

:

It's just, it's so interesting to think about when you're in the States, because you think

about wrestling overseas and things like that, but you really think about the stronghold

219

:

of wrestling being such a Southern thing.

220

:

You're a hundred percent right.

221

:

Yeah.

222

:

Yeah, man.

223

:

No, it's absolutely everywhere.

224

:

Those are our stories, man.

225

:

Those are our male redneck soap operas.

226

:

What's your, what's your early wrestling story?

227

:

Like what had gotten you into it when you were younger?

228

:

Dude, I don't even know the first time that I started getting into it.

229

:

Honestly, that's actually something I hadn't thought about.

230

:

Like what was the first time you watched wrestling?

231

:

It was one of those things that I just always had, you know, it's kind like, I don't

really remember the first time I heard Van Halen.

232

:

like, I've always had Van Halen in my life.

233

:

and wrestling is the same way, man.

234

:

Dang, that's a good question because I'm trying to think about it this way, man.

235

:

So I grew up funny enough on a street called Harmony Circle.

236

:

Pretty cool.

237

:

There you go.

238

:

And down the street was my best buddy and lifelong friend, Josh.

239

:

He lived right down the street from me and him and his brother, who's his older brother,

Brian, we're always really into wrestling.

240

:

So maybe we got into it hanging around them because my parents didn't watch wrestling.

241

:

So maybe they got us into it.

242

:

Maybe watching it over at their place or something, you know?

243

:

But again, I don't even remember when that was, so it would have been early, early, early

on.

244

:

And man, we just used to love watching that stuff.

245

:

And I don't know to me.

246

:

You know, it was like watching real life superheroes.

247

:

That was the appeal to me.

248

:

You know, I was always into comic books and everything growing up.

249

:

And so to see these guys, these big, you know, hulking dudes with these crazy physiques

and costumes and they had their super moves and they had this like, you know, mythology.

250

:

Like when you see characters like the Undertaker when you're a kid and you're like, OK, I

know that this is pretend and he's acting, but like this is the closest thing to seeing a

251

:

real superhero I've ever seen.

252

:

Like this guy is beyond huge.

253

:

think that's what got me into it early on.

254

:

Yeah, the pageantry.

255

:

100%, yeah.

256

:

And you know, I ask that question sometimes to people, like, was your first memory of

wrestling?

257

:

like, I'll always go back to Bret and Sean, WrestleMania 12, but I don't even think that

was my first time.

258

:

But like, that's the one that I always say, really got me into wrestling.

259

:

everyone's like, if you, if for people listening, you guys know the match, a 60 minute

Iron Man match, and everyone's like, why are gonna put these two in there for 60 minutes?

260

:

And then it goes to a draw.

261

:

And then all of a sudden it's like, all right, we're back.

262

:

And then Sean goes, surprise, fuck face and hits you with a super kick.

263

:

And it's like, that's it.

264

:

All of a sudden, Sean's there.

265

:

I'm always a Sean guy.

266

:

And it's just like, yeah, he's, he's so good.

267

:

And you know, there's like, I think that was my first match was Sean, Brett, WrestleMania

12, but same thing.

268

:

Like you feel like it's been in your life forever.

269

:

I know my parents were huge into it.

270

:

And then over the years, like,

271

:

You know, my mom was really big into it too with like SmackDown when it came on when we

lived in Queens and we would just like eat Ben and Jerry's Bovinity Divinity ice cream,

272

:

watching it on UPN.

273

:

That's a throwback ladies and gentlemen, UPN for those in the North.

274

:

like, that's like, I remember those things and she's watching like the Rock gets super

kicked by Shawn Michaels as a referee in the short shorts.

275

:

And I'm like, my God.

276

:

And my mom was somebody who was very much like, you know, I think she helped me spend my

disbelief for a lot longer.

277

:

Yeah.

278

:

was like, my God, if someone got kicked like that, yeah, they'd be out.

279

:

And I'm like, yeah.

280

:

Yeah.

281

:

And then there was always like that little glimmer of like, you know, the undertaker.

282

:

Yeah.

283

:

I thought he was dead for awhile.

284

:

I'm like, yeah, he was.

285

:

totally.

286

:

man, that's funny you mentioned Shawn Michaels too, because like that was always the the

raging question back in the day is like, okay, Brett or Shawn, which of which side are you

287

:

on?

288

:

And I remember as a kid, I always liked to face I like Brett Hart, I like to go out there

and give it is really, you know, crappy sunglasses to the kids.

289

:

Remember, he gives the kids that it's like a piece of foil shaped into sunglasses, like

here you go, kid.

290

:

But I always thought that he was like the good guy, you know, and Shawn was like,

291

:

bad guy.

292

:

nowadays, I'm just like, no, Sean, all the way to what a performer so much charisma, so

much crowd control and so much consistency.

293

:

Like, a friend of mine showed me a compilation of all of his, like, you know, elbow drops

over the years.

294

:

It was just a compilation of elbow drop, elbow drop, elbow drop.

295

:

They're identical.

296

:

It's like his muscle memory is spot on, they all look exactly the same.

297

:

Because he so dialed in as a performer.

298

:

And dude, actually, okay.

299

:

Here's one of my first wrestling members.

300

:

can't say the first, but one of my first, you'll think this is hilarious.

301

:

So remember of course, Sean Michael's theme song, absolutely part of the charisma singing

your own theme song about how you're a sexy boy.

302

:

Awesome.

303

:

Holy cow.

304

:

can't get any cooler than that.

305

:

Right.

306

:

But whenever the song starts and Sean's walking out, there's, there's a lady and she goes,

Sean.

307

:

you know, she's making sexy noises.

308

:

That was my sexy noise, by the way.

309

:

But dude, as like, you know, like a five year old kid, I didn't understand that that was

like sexy woman noises.

310

:

I thought that was the sound of him like murdering a woman, because he's a bad guy.

311

:

Imagine that changes the whole context of everything Shawn Michaels.

312

:

I'm gonna murder somebody then I'm gonna walk to the ring.

313

:

He's a real lady killer.

314

:

Really.

315

:

It just confused me so much as a kid.

316

:

was like, wow, this guy's really a bad guy.

317

:

His theme song starts off with him murdering a woman then singing about how hot he is.

318

:

This guy's messed up.

319

:

You want to know something crazy though.

320

:

Actually, this is something I thought for years to actually up until last year.

321

:

I forget where it was.

322

:

I forget where I heard it, which is a great way to qualify anything I'm about to say,

ladies and gentlemen.

323

:

But I believe that the vocals at the beginning, everyone thought was Sherry, right?

324

:

Sherry Martel, but it's actually Jimmy Hart.

325

:

Yeah.

326

:

How crazy is that?

327

:

uh

328

:

that adds an extra layer of confusion.

329

:

Now I'm just as confused now as a 40 year old dude than was when I was five.

330

:

uh

331

:

when I heard that, and it was on one of these legit sources, like someone who knew or

whatever in the industry, and I was just like, man, this is like some Berenstein Bears

332

:

kind of stuff going back and forth.

333

:

Like, no, no, no, this is Mandela effect.

334

:

This is like, it totally was her.

335

:

It has to be.

336

:

Otherwise, 36 years of my life means nothing.

337

:

Or, I don't know, someone squashed a bug in the 80s and then went back in time and never

squashed that bug and now Jimmy Hart did it.

338

:

I don't know.

339

:

oh

340

:

yeah.

341

:

And I have this conversation with people who do the entrance themes nowadays too, cause

they're like, man, what do you think about like the themes now, you know, and like what

342

:

you do and what like Mikey from AEW does and all this.

343

:

And I'm always like, man, it takes a lot to write a really memorable theme.

344

:

But I think the thing that a lot of people don't.

345

:

Wreck it.

346

:

Well, let me talk about Bratz first.

347

:

The thing that's cool with Bratz is now, you know, Natalia uses a version of it, his,

related in the industry and whatnot.

348

:

And it's just like.

349

:

It's cool to see that, I go, man, back in the day, you didn't have lots of companies.

350

:

You didn't have a lot of the same dynamics.

351

:

So you got the opportunity for those themes to really stick in your head.

352

:

And I'm like, I don't think you're going to get back there again.

353

:

Like I think that you can make music, obviously that's really unique for each person, but

like, like, of like you said, Brett Hart's theme, it's kind of da, da, da, da, da, da, da,

354

:

da, da, da, da,

355

:

Yeah.

356

:

And then it's just like, then some like kind of cool solo that happened.

357

:

That's cool.

358

:

But like, I always think about it and I asked Jim Johnson this on LinkedIn, cause we had a

conversation at Jim Johnson, composer for WWE or WWF, right?

359

:

Who wrote that?

360

:

And he's like, man, when you write themes, you got to think about like who the talent is

and things like think about the undertaker.

361

:

go, but yeah, no disrespect.

362

:

The undertaker is a dead guy, right?

363

:

You could write a funeral dirge.

364

:

Totally cool.

365

:

nowadays, you know, you may write something heavy too, but I go,

366

:

What about Brett?

367

:

How do you like write Canadian?

368

:

You know what I mean?

369

:

How do you write for a technical person?

370

:

And for that, he was always like, you got to think of like the story of the person.

371

:

You got to think about like, everybody's got a unique story.

372

:

And I always agree with that.

373

:

They do.

374

:

But it's just like, I don't know how you get inside the mind of like a Brett Hart and come

up with something like that.

375

:

That theme is always iconic.

376

:

Dude, I was going to ask you about this because you've done a lot of this kind of work and

I've always thought that it sounded so fun because I don't know about you, man, like I get

377

:

the total fear of a blank page, right?

378

:

When I don't have an assignment and it's like, I don't know, do something, be creative,

write something, anything.

379

:

It's a blank page.

380

:

Like I kind of just spiral at that point.

381

:

But when the assignment gets tighter and tighter, like for doing sessions that have done

over the years or whatever, where it's like, okay, I need a 30 second long guitar solo in

382

:

this key at this tempo.

383

:

My brain starts firing off ideas right away.

384

:

The limitation is what makes it interesting to me.

385

:

Um, and I imagine when you're writing a theme for wrestlers you've done, it's gotta be

really, I don't know.

386

:

I would see my own brain getting very excited about that being like, okay, needs to this

long.

387

:

It needs to convey this energy.

388

:

It's for this character.

389

:

It looks like this, the story is this.

390

:

I would get really excited doing that.

391

:

What is that process like for you?

392

:

Yeah, it's exactly like you said, you know, it's, one of those things.

393

:

And as, as I think we're both in kind of that guitar space too, you think about all the

phenomenal players.

394

:

It's like, well, okay.

395

:

You think about like a Jack Gardner, you think about all these guys and you go, okay,

great.

396

:

That record you played every single note.

397

:

What's next?

398

:

You know, and it's just like, it's this blank canvas of you can play all the things you

can do all the things you've literally hit every chord tone.

399

:

You've literally hit every non-chord tone.

400

:

You did every passing that you could have done.

401

:

what's the next record gonna sound like?

402

:

It becomes daunting.

403

:

When you do themes for wrestlers, I feel like it's been, honestly, like you said, kind

some of the most freeing to do, because you talk to a talent and you're like, what's your

404

:

story?

405

:

What do you want your theme to tell the people about you before we hit the ring?

406

:

And tell me a bit about you.

407

:

And it becomes this thing where, and I forget, you basically said it, right?

408

:

With limitations comes freedom, because if you can do everything,

409

:

then you have this paralysis.

410

:

you know, okay, you're going to be doing this kind of thing, then it helps tighten that up

a little bit.

411

:

And it helps you get even more creative outside of that, right?

412

:

If you're working on a theme for a talent who's, let's say, more of a horror gimmick or

more of like a scary theme, okay, cool.

413

:

You could choose this scale to work in.

414

:

cool, maybe you can choose this kind of more exotic scale to write in instead.

415

:

And it's like, wow, that makes them a little bit more unique.

416

:

Why did you choose that?

417

:

Because...

418

:

This person sounds very much from the underworld.

419

:

This person is a cult leader.

420

:

This person, you know, it's, gives you those kind of like extra tools and it, makes it

like, you get to feel like each piece that you write does have its own identity.

421

:

Cause every wrestler then has their own identity too.

422

:

So yeah, I think you're a hundred percent spot on with that.

423

:

Yeah.

424

:

The constraint it's like within the constraint lies the freedom.

425

:

It's really interesting because if you just had somebody come to you and they're like

write me a theme, you'd be like.

426

:

OK, what the anything?

427

:

Yeah, anything.

428

:

I would probably never get anything done if that was the case, but you're right if it was

like hey, I'm a supernatural luchador.

429

:

And I'm a high flyer, high impact wrestler or whatever.

430

:

I would start getting ideas right away.

431

:

You know, I always find that something to.

432

:

that showed my students and stuff over the years too.

433

:

know, people that are having trouble getting creative, getting songs finished.

434

:

It's usually because they're giving themselves the biggest blank page in the world.

435

:

But when you give yourself that assignment of like, has to be this long, it has to convey

this emotion, it has to be in this key, it has to be, you know what I mean?

436

:

The more limitations you give, usually the more ideas you'll actually get.

437

:

Yeah, and I think a lot of people think in that way too, like the more they write music

and the more, you know, when you're a beginner in that stage, you're not thinking like

438

:

that.

439

:

You're just like, and I always use this terminology, you know, back in the day you had Led

Zeppelin coming out with a small orchestra and there was smoke and there was Jimmy Page

440

:

coming out with all the letters and know, crazy shapes on his pants and Robert Plant came

out with his shirt open and all of sudden he's singing into the microphone or he just

441

:

sounds like he's singing to a hall of people and it's just like.

442

:

yeah, how do they come up with all this stuff?

443

:

And I'm like, I love Zeppelin, I do, but at the same time, you could call it reverb on the

voice, you could call it, know, he's using these scales, he's doing this, and it's not

444

:

absolutely to make any of that sound bad, it's just, you know, these are the tools that

they're using, and it's okay to know that.

445

:

So then when you turn around and you have a student that's like, I can't do this, you're

like, all right, let's focus up a little bit.

446

:

I just had the rock band we do at our school did that, we were like, all right.

447

:

We've learned all these songs, let's write a piece of music.

448

:

And I did start it off a little bit open.

449

:

I'm like, all right, cool.

450

:

Does anyone have anything?

451

:

And they all kind of look at each other like, what are we doing?

452

:

I'm like, all right, cool, cool.

453

:

What are we feeling now?

454

:

What's our vibe?

455

:

And they're like, a little bit more calm and this.

456

:

I'm like, all right, cool.

457

:

What are some songs that you think of that are kind of calm?

458

:

Okay, this.

459

:

And we listened to like three or four and I'm like, the two that you really liked the most

were in this time signature.

460

:

Okay, cool, let's do that.

461

:

And so think of that and let's choose a key, right?

462

:

Right.

463

:

this super cool song.

464

:

And I'm like, man, like the band is literally just like, I feel this is something you

could listen to on the radio.

465

:

I'm like, that's it.

466

:

Like that, yeah.

467

:

And then guess what?

468

:

You can write another song that sounds a lot more lively and is a little bit more like,

you know, fast.

469

:

Like you can do those things, but now you have this way to define more of what you're

looking to do.

470

:

Yeah.

471

:

man, absolutely so.

472

:

That's gotta be a real thrill seeing that.

473

:

I've always loved doing that with younger students and stuff too.

474

:

That thrill of seeing them be like, my God, I can write music.

475

:

It's a thrill, whenever that clicks with people.

476

:

Yeah.

477

:

And you've worked with hundreds of students too.

478

:

You have so many students that you've worked with and you know, for you, it's like, it's

not just compositions, but it's breaking through those guitar things.

479

:

It's being able to like, and that's one thing that I think is often understated and

actually as an instructor, I've learned a lot from you too, watching the way that you

480

:

teach and explain things.

481

:

It's like, you dial in so much on the minutiae, right?

482

:

But you focus so much on the things that people are doing, right?

483

:

but you're like, hey, here's the thing you're not considering.

484

:

You know, for those who don't know, Troy Grady and Ben Eller are the people that have

defined the pickslanting conversation over the last couple of years.

485

:

And if you don't know what pickslanting is and your guitarist listening to this, check out

all of the videos that Troy Grady and Ben have done because it's like, it really makes

486

:

just an unbelievable difference.

487

:

If you don't know what it is, it's basically take your guitar playing from I'm Stuck to

488

:

playing anything.

489

:

It's unbelievable.

490

:

It's crazy man.

491

:

Yeah, the Troy stuff man.

492

:

I always have to give credit to you know, I I didn't I didn't discover anything that Troy

didn't you know, I just take what Troy showed me and I try to phrase it in my own words

493

:

and see if it clicks with people, know Troy really did change everything for the world of

technical guitar playing for sure.

494

:

Yeah.

495

:

And it's so cool to have like those little dissects there, right?

496

:

Like just how quick you dive on a technique.

497

:

And you know, when we think about the amount of people that you've played for, the amount

of work that you've done, and just in general, there's so much that has like Ben Eller

498

:

attached to it, you know?

499

:

And it's so funny too, because like, you know, we worked on one theme a while ago for

Bruce Rogers.

500

:

I was like, man, let's go ahead and have Ben on here.

501

:

And it's just like...

502

:

2020?

503

:

that during COVID time?

504

:

I think it was.

505

:

Yeah.

506

:

two, at least two to three years ago.

507

:

And it's still one of my favorite themes that I've done.

508

:

Cause again, I like doing stuff that's in more of that metal vein is, you know, I like to

kind of say I'm more of a metal player, but like in guitar nowadays, you basically do

509

:

whatever, right?

510

:

But like, I remember I got that solo back from you and I'm like, this probably took him

like 10 minutes to do.

511

:

It's so good.

512

:

Like I'm always just like, you do the assignment.

513

:

hit pretty fast on and it was like I know exactly what I want to do here You know, I love

when that happens, you know that those are always The best ones whether it be solos or

514

:

entire songs or whatever I don't know about you man like the ones that I Toil away on for

like a year at a time.

515

:

Those never end up being the keepers It's always the ones where the inspiration hits hard

and fast and you just feel like you're getting this like Satellite laser beam from space

516

:

just sending you the information, you know

517

:

Those are always the best ones, ones where you don't have time to overthink.

518

:

Exactly, and they tell you that all the time, like don't overthink it.

519

:

If it sounds good and it feels like that's what it should be, you can go back and change

things later, sure, but like usually your heart and your brain kind of know what's going

520

:

on.

521

:

You know, you can overthink things until you're like dead and buried, but like you

literally, a lot of these things, the more you play, the more you write, you get in there.

522

:

And I feel like when it comes to even doing some of these like entrance themes, I feel

like a lot of them, when you hear these people have talked over time, whether it's CFOs

523

:

from

524

:

you know, like more modern NXT or even Jim Johnston for the stuff that we're talking about

from the eighties, the nineties, the two thousands.

525

:

It, it sounds like he knew very much what he was trying to do.

526

:

Like think about like, you know, the stone cold theme, like glass shatters.

527

:

I feel like that was written in like 10 minutes.

528

:

dude.

529

:

I'm serious and and you know, it's funny you mentioned that because I was exactly going

the same place in my brain and it's cool to see how a lot of those ultra memorable themes

530

:

aren't even necessarily based around music It's based around a sound the undertaker the

bell.

531

:

That's not a song but you hear that bell and you're like, the undertaker the dead man's

here You know the glass shattering that's stung cold period, you know, so it's funny how a

532

:

lot of this stuff is

533

:

more like audio design and then the music is kind of secondary in a way.

534

:

Yeah, it is.

535

:

And so that brings up the question.

536

:

I know that you said Shawn Michaels and that theme, and we were talking about that

earlier.

537

:

Is that your favorite theme of all time or do you have a favorite theme?

538

:

that's a great question.

539

:

always have loved, I mean, and again, I'm very old school with all this stuff, so I'm sure

there's a million newer ones that I'm missing out on that I don't know.

540

:

I always really liked Ultimate Warriors theme.

541

:

And then it was like years later, I heard Communication Breakdown by Led Zeppelin.

542

:

And I'm like, wait, that's the Ultimate Warriors riff.

543

:

Da da da da da da da da da da do.

544

:

You know, it's like, that's pretty much the same thing.

545

:

And it just, you know, as soon as you hear that riff, what else can you imagine other than

546

:

that coked up lunatic just sprinting to the ring dressed up like a girl bike with his

tassels, right?

547

:

um I love that one.

548

:

love Razor Ramon's theme.

549

:

I think Razor Ramon has a really underrated theme.

550

:

It's kind of got that sort of Havana vibe to it.

551

:

Really slick like synth chords over I think a static bass note if I recall.

552

:

Always really liked that one a lot.

553

:

Yeah, Stone Cold's dude, I mean that's legendary.

554

:

You can't not like that

555

:

I feel like Razor Ramones is very under appreciated.

556

:

agree with you.

557

:

Cause like that, that's one where it's like, okay, who's the character.

558

:

And you know, in a way he's like smooth, but he's sleazy and like, you know, you think

about the ultimate warrior.

559

:

What did he do?

560

:

He ran to the ring.

561

:

And then when he was on the ring, he shook the ropes and then he, his move was a splash

where he ran against the ropes.

562

:

And then he was like, you know, it was just like so much speed.

563

:

Yeah.

564

:

Just like unbelievably like what, what else would it be?

565

:

And you think about like Razor Ramones and like,

566

:

the way he walked to the ring pre Scott Hall and NWO right but like you know he was he was

walking to the ring he was so smooth about it he he didn't rush to the ring at all there

567

:

was no time where Scott Hall ran to the ring he was just like all right

568

:

Did his theme did it also start off with a noise?

569

:

Wouldn't it like almost like some tropical birds in the go?

570

:

And then the theme started.

571

:

theme, I know his theme had like some metallic sounds in it too, like going throughout it

and that was kind of like, that would be like where the snare is or like the down or

572

:

something like that.

573

:

But yeah, I forget.

574

:

I think his might've.

575

:

If it did, yeah.

576

:

There's gonna be one weird one that I bring up, which a lot of people don't think about

now, cause he wasn't really around for that long, but he helped inspire the Bray Wyatt

577

:

character.

578

:

His name was Waylon Mercy.

579

:

And if you know,

580

:

like modern wrestling, Bray Wyatt's probably like one of my favorites of all time, God

rest his soul now.

581

:

But like when he first kind of came onto the scene as Bray Wyatt, he had the white pants

and he had the the button down Hawaiian shirt.

582

:

It was very much in that style of Cape Fear and very much in the style of a wrestler that

came before him named Waylon Mercy.

583

:

And Waylon Mercy was kind of in that same creepy vein.

584

:

Like he was in like 1995, 96 and

585

:

He would come to the, I'm going to get probably the 90 something wrong, but give me a

four, four year range, ladies and gentlemen.

586

:

but he would in his promos, he'd be like, when I get into that ring, you know what I mean?

587

:

And like, he would be like the creepiest guy in the world, but then you'd hear his theme

and like.

588

:

Bray Wyatt's theme was like really culty.

589

:

Like Mark Crozer did a really good job on that song, but then you hear like this guy's

theme and I'll send it to you.

590

:

It's not super creepy.

591

:

It's one of the, the one offs that I think is like.

592

:

maybe in wrestling history, maybe one of the ones that could have been done a little

better.

593

:

And again, guy comes out looking like Bray doing all that, shaking hands totally Southern

and then having this crazy look when he puts his guy to sleep or hold, but he's got a

594

:

knife drawn onto his head.

595

:

Like he'd go, you'd have a little knife drill in his head.

596

:

And then the music's like ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.

597

:

And I'm like, I get you're trying to do that duality, but that was probably one of the

only misses for me ever.

598

:

But all the other ones that, and I know you didn't bring that one up, but all the other

ones that you were bringing up, yeah, those are.

599

:

Those are amazing.

600

:

And I think just when you think about themes in general, like, yeah, those are the ones.

601

:

Those are obviously the ones that you would go to.

602

:

Macho Man's was always great, pomp and circumstance.

603

:

man, that's like the pageantry.

604

:

You know, they really rolled out the red carpet on that one.

605

:

I liked it.

606

:

And again, speaking of dearly departed man, just lost Sabu.

607

:

I always liked Sabu's theme a lot.

608

:

Sabu is one of my guys.

609

:

That's always been one of my dudes.

610

:

Sabu's theme kind of flies under the radar, but I think it's really cool too.

611

:

Kind of exotic sounding.

612

:

Rest in peace to Sabu.

613

:

Like you said, it's a, it's a shame he's 60 gone, gone too soon, but you really think

about like his contributions in ECW and ECW did so much from the music side.

614

:

Like you'll hear Paul Mahamon talk about it.

615

:

He's like, we didn't really care about music rights.

616

:

We just kind of did it.

617

:

Like you had walk for what's his name.

618

:

You had walk for a Rob Van Dam, which was super cool.

619

:

Yeah.

620

:

So yeah, it was.

621

:

you get the licensed one that really pops like how I'm seeing punk and like, culture

personality, right?

622

:

Like you hear that riff and you just think see him punk like every now and then you need a

licensed song to really, you know, hook up with a wrestler's persona and that can work

623

:

too.

624

:

Yeah, he's always had great themes throughout his career.

625

:

And like before that he had kill switching gauges, this fire burns and that was great.

626

:

Yeah.

627

:

And that was so shocking when he came back.

628

:

Cause you know, he had that going into money in the bank 2011 and it was like, he's not

going to leave with the belt.

629

:

Cause they're not going to let him do that.

630

:

And he left with the belt and he did his thing.

631

:

And then they're like, seven days later, come back.

632

:

he had cult of personality.

633

:

And it's just, it's such an iconic theme now.

634

:

And when he left, went to AEW and then.

635

:

was out and then came back to WWE.

636

:

No one knew he was going to call.

637

:

A lot of people were like, there's no way CM Punk's coming back because look at what he

said.

638

:

But all of a sudden the day before he, it's either the day before or the day he comes

back, living color put out a remixed version of it, like where they replayed it and re

639

:

saying it and things.

640

:

And you're just like, either they got really smart PR people and they're just like, we're

going to play up the fact that survivor series is in Chicago and he's there.

641

:

Or he's coming back tonight.

642

:

I don't know what we're doing, but...

643

:

Wow, dude.

644

:

That's funny.

645

:

Oh, I really like, um, we were talking about how Shawn Michaels sang his own song.

646

:

Um, I'm, I'm drawing a blank right now, dude.

647

:

Uh, Fozzy.

648

:

Um, thank you.

649

:

Chris Jericho.

650

:

His, his intro music is fantastic.

651

:

Yeah.

652

:

Yeah.

653

:

He's so when you talk about him, you got to talk about the WWE one and you got to talk

about the one he uses now, Judas, which is from Fozzy.

654

:

Yeah.

655

:

Both of them are good.

656

:

He's a, he's got, he's got the love of being able to have a really good entrance themes

over his career.

657

:

And if your band can write and you're going to use one of your songs, do that one.

658

:

Judas is great, but yeah.

659

:

I remember loving his WWE WWF theme though break the walls down.

660

:

remember like he would stand out on the stage with the arms crossed and little eight year

old me was like, yeah, my room with it.

661

:

That was it.

662

:

When you were a kid, who was the wrestler that you like most identified with?

663

:

Were you like, I want to grow up and be that guy.

664

:

I think it was Chris Jericho.

665

:

It was either Chris Jericho or the Rock.

666

:

And I think it's like, for me, I'd say Shawn Michaels is one, is probably my favorite of

all time.

667

:

But like, you know, there is so much dancing that you can do in public.

668

:

So you're kind of like, all right, like maybe not, but Chris Jericho to me, he was always

so funny.

669

:

And I loved him in WCW too.

670

:

He was so funny.

671

:

He had the long hair.

672

:

He was such a rocker.

673

:

He would call people by the wrong names and like.

674

:

He was just so cool and charismatic and that he had the best theme.

675

:

And he was also like, back then there weren't lots of people doing like moon salts and

things like that.

676

:

You know, he was just, I loved him for me.

677

:

was like, man, if I could be a Chris Jericho when I grow up, I'll, I'll be me a Chris

Jericho.

678

:

Yes, absolutely.

679

:

And then everyone wants to either be the rock or stone cold.

680

:

Cause they're just like, okay, cool.

681

:

Those are like the two larger than life guys, the one a and the one B.

682

:

All right.

683

:

Yeah.

684

:

man, that's so cool.

685

:

And now we talk all about like what I was sending you the other day.

686

:

Adam from tool being on Penta's theme and then being on Ray Phoenix's theme.

687

:

That rules, man.

688

:

It's also cool to see that, you know, I mean, it's, it's Adam Jones from tool.

689

:

It's like, dude, doesn't have to write extra music.

690

:

Guy could probably not work another day in his life and he'd be fine, you know, but he

still is just like, man, that sounds rad.

691

:

I'll totally do that.

692

:

That shows like love for it, which I really appreciate.

693

:

Yeah.

694

:

And you know, a couple of years ago, he had the picture of him on stage with the Pentagon

mask, which is the guy he had done the theme for.

695

:

I was like, this is so cool.

696

:

And like, you know, it's cool when you see people in media taking those little bits and

being like, okay, cool.

697

:

Like I actually watch wrestling.

698

:

Cause like you said, it's so niche.

699

:

And even now, even now that, you know, states are going, we're going to bring it here and

we're going to pay to have it here.

700

:

It's still niche.

701

:

And I, I tell people as people don't believe me, but like when I

702

:

travel for work or I travel for anything.

703

:

You know, I usually tell people I do the wrestling entrance themes because you know, when

you explain the other sides of work, it's like, all right, cool, it is what it is.

704

:

But when you explain the entrance themes thing, it's just kind of a fun conversation.

705

:

And the first word out of lot of people's mouths are, man, yeah, like WWF man is, yeah, is

the rock still wrestling and things like that.

706

:

And you're like, you know, it's not a dig on anyone, but it still tells you how niche of a

product it is, you know.

707

:

It's the same way with like with metal in a lot of ways where the awareness of it from a

public eye perspective is higher than it's ever been.

708

:

Like more people are aware of who, know, Metallica is or whatever, any, any metal band,

more people are aware of it.

709

:

Yeah, exactly, man.

710

:

Exactly.

711

:

And wrestling is the same way.

712

:

like, yeah, people are a lot more aware of it now than they were when I was a kid, but

yeah, you're right.

713

:

It doesn't necessarily mean up to date and super knowledgeable about it.

714

:

but the awareness is up,

715

:

Yeah.

716

:

And it's so interesting because you don't expect them to go to a tool show and see him

wearing a Pentagon mask.

717

:

Cause even at that time, I think that picture was when he was in triple AR or he was

doing, um, like Lucha underground and things like that.

718

:

So it's like, it's not one of these things.

719

:

Yeah.

720

:

It's not like, Oh, he did it in 2025 when, you know, Penta came to WWE or when he was in

AEW, right?

721

:

A couple of years ago, you're talking about like fairly not in the public eye kind of

thing.

722

:

You know?

723

:

So for me, it's.

724

:

to do it before it's cool, right?

725

:

Exactly.

726

:

Yeah.

727

:

And so for me, I'm just like, man, I love the fact.

728

:

they brought it up on TV too.

729

:

They were like, this was from Tool or this was from Adam Jones from Tool.

730

:

He went ahead and laid guitars over the theme.

731

:

you know, the thing is with a lot of these companies now, they use like libraries, right?

732

:

And the library track, it's cool.

733

:

And then if they go, we're going to update it to the guy super over, we'll make something

custom for him.

734

:

So like, it's another one of these things.

735

:

Penta comes in, he's got this cool track.

736

:

It's probably from a library, but I'm just like, there's again.

737

:

there's no reason for Adam Jones to have done it.

738

:

And then he's on it.

739

:

And you're just like, sounds so much cooler now.

740

:

And it's like, why don't we get all the guys on all the tracks because it's that cool.

741

:

So

742

:

way, right?

743

:

You know what?

744

:

That kind of brings an interesting thing to mind that I was going to ask you about too.

745

:

Like, is there any movement within what you do of writing these themes for wrestlers?

746

:

Is there any movement towards people just like ditching paying artists and using AI?

747

:

Like, Hey, AI, write a wrestling theme for this zombie wrestler.

748

:

Is there any movement towards that?

749

:

I've had a few talents who have said that their promotional use AI because it's easier and

o doing entrance themes about:

750

:

podcast with a couple buddies of mine and You know, we were interviewing people and I

would ask them I go how do you guys get?

751

:

Music to use and at that point understand streaming wasn't as big there wasn't this

Triller fight all these things like as prominent as they are now

752

:

And people were just like, man, we just go to the shows, we choose a song, and we hope we

don't get sued, and we hope it's not used by the person coming out after us, right?

753

:

So like, this was really before AI started picking up.

754

:

And so I was writing a lot of themes, and I'm still grateful to be writing a lot of

themes.

755

:

But nowadays you'll have a lot of these companies who will go, well, we're going to stream

on Triller, or we're going to stream on one of these apps, and even on YouTube.

756

:

And so instead of us having to get something from a library or, again,

757

:

Wrestlers don't need to be lawyers knowing what certain things say.

758

:

like, you know, they're going to rely on whoever's given them a real lease to say whatever

it's got to say.

759

:

Right.

760

:

It's probably easier for a lot of promoters to go, well, let's do something AI.

761

:

The one thing I will say is while I do know that the practice exists and wrestlers, thank

you very much for this because y'all are great and y'all are doing the Lord's work here.

762

:

I've had a lot of people come to me and be like, yeah, I hadn't a track done by AI, but I

want something done by a human.

763

:

not just by me, but by a human.

764

:

And I'm like, that's really cool.

765

:

And I can even think of like three right off the bat, you know, it's.

766

:

kind of like the equivalent of giving you a sketch on a napkin and being like, I want

this, but better.

767

:

Yeah, and I think that's the power of AI.

768

:

I think there's a lot of, we can talk a lot about AI, we're not going to now, but I think

that there's a lot of power in that.

769

:

People that don't know and people that can't do a certain thing, using the tool to help

them ideate and them going, that's great, let me go over here and get someone to do it

770

:

right.

771

:

Or, yeah.

772

:

you're right to the common person who has no musical ability, but they need a piece of

music to suit a certain thing like what you're talking about, but they don't have the they

773

:

don't have the vocabulary to explain it to an actual musician.

774

:

That could be an effective tool to be like, I'm trying to communicate what I want.

775

:

I had a I spit this out because I don't speak your language as a musician.

776

:

So please take this and do it up right.

777

:

Do it like a real musician would.

778

:

I hope that more people have that level of integrity to use it that way.

779

:

We'll see.

780

:

Yeah, it's a crazy world with that.

781

:

I will say that I think that the more time goes on, the more you're seeing that kind of

separation between AI and the human side, because there's always going to be, you know,

782

:

and I'm no stranger to it.

783

:

I'd love to use more drummers in the work that I do because drummers, y'all are

phenomenal.

784

:

And, you know, I'd love to be able to bring it in.

785

:

A lot of the times I do end up writing in drum parts into drum machines and being able to

use those for a lot of the work that I do.

786

:

But I'm still composing it.

787

:

One thing I really try to make sure that I don't do is use loops that are musically

driven.

788

:

If I need an explosion sound effect, yes, I will use an explosion sound effect, but that's

also using a sitar to get a certain sound or an acoustic.

789

:

But if I had to have the sitar play something for me, I'm like, well, that's when we start

to get into non-creative dicey territory, in my opinion.

790

:

um But I think that a lot of people are starting to see that...

791

:

even though AI is, you know, in a lot of ways decent, there is something to having that

human element, even if it's just that extra little bit.

792

:

It's that little extra little bit to tell the person, can you add like an extra second of

silence here?

793

:

And like, can you do this little thing?

794

:

Because the computer doesn't get what I'm doing.

795

:

know?

796

:

Exactly, yeah.

797

:

you know, it's a lot, and I think there will always be a struggle kind of with AI,

especially nowadays, but I think that...

798

:

I think we're doing it.

799

:

think we're to a degree we're doing it.

800

:

I think if you watch Mary Spender's last video and like the modern state of music industry

and like, yeah, she's, she's always great and she's super transparent about everything.

801

:

And I love that she has that transparency to her, but she's also talked about like, well,

even though AI and Spotify and all that stuff is here, there's still a lot of hope for

802

:

what we do.

803

:

And I love that because it talks about like authenticity and even in wrestling, it's like,

you know, if you're cookie cutter doing something, it's one thing, but you still got to go

804

:

to a show.

805

:

You still got to watch someone on TV.

806

:

They still got to connect with you.

807

:

And I think that what AI does show is that, things can be done by other, robots or by code

or whatever, but you're always still going to have to have that authenticity to what you

808

:

do.

809

:

So.

810

:

exactly, exactly.

811

:

And, ultimately all those AI models that we currently have access to are all just

gathering information by scraping it off the work of actual human creativity.

812

:

You know, so it is ultimately all human based, you know, all of that stuff that we consume

that's AI based is ultimately taken from human experience.

813

:

Exactly.

814

:

One of the things that AI will never take are again when you have that dead and lovely

Facebook group, which was so active and still is active pretty, which is cool.

815

:

You guys would always be like, Hey, ask us questions for the show.

816

:

And my dumb ass would always be the one like, Hey, if you had to make a WrestleMania with

a bunch of horror people, who would they be?

817

:

fun, dude.

818

:

Anytime we did like a, an FAQ thing on the show, it was always so fun.

819

:

And I love those kinds of questions specifically, you know, cause that's just an excuse to

get creative and get stupid, man.

820

:

Those are, those are the parts of the show that I miss honestly, like, or just the excuses

to be stupid on air.

821

:

Well, you guys had such a great show too.

822

:

like, you know, at one point, I'm sure it's like, well, how far, how many horror movies

are there?

823

:

You know, but it's a lot, it's a lot, but you also had such a vibrant group of people who

were in that group, just all talking about horror, talking about wrestling, talking about

824

:

just like everything.

825

:

And it was so super cool.

826

:

you know, I'm always, yeah, I still go back and listen to those.

827

:

Hell yeah.

828

:

It's so cool.

829

:

man and it was really fun to see that community grow as something beyond like because the

show was never just about horror movies.

830

:

You know, we always made it very clear the show is just an excuse for us to hang out and

shoot the shit every week and we had to talk about a movie later on in the show.

831

:

So I always appreciated that our fans and our Facebook group and all that reflected that

where it wasn't just people talking about horror stuff.

832

:

It was.

833

:

Everything within the entire sphere of everything we talked about on the show, included

guitar stuff and wrestling and cooking and whatever else, you know.

834

:

Now, I'm gonna ask you two questions before we're done.

835

:

And one of them is very much in the vein of that.

836

:

Because I feel like, you know, with how long we've known each other with this, with

Deadly, with all that stuff, it would be inappropriate for me to not throw in a question

837

:

about build this.

838

:

So, as we are both in that guitar ecosystem here, I asked you a while ago, for the Dead

and Lovely, if you had to build a WrestleMania card all about horror people, who would you

839

:

put in and why?

840

:

If you had to build...

841

:

Let's say a three card match.

842

:

So three matches with guitarists.

843

:

Who would they be and what would be some of the matches?

844

:

man, oh That's brutal.

845

:

Okay.

846

:

All right.

847

:

So first match I want to see I want to see the battle of the bar I'm talking about the

whammy bar masters Jeff Beck and Steve Vai.

848

:

I want to see them go bar to bar Rocking it out.

849

:

See who can control that that'll kickstand more better.

850

:

So the battle of the bars I want to see a total package match.

851

:

Okay total package being

852

:

guys that are equally insane riffers and shredders.

853

:

So I'm thinking Dimebag Darryl versus Vogue from Decapitated.

854

:

Because Vogue is one of the ultimate total package players.

855

:

That would be like, that would be the underdog in that match, you know?

856

:

And good call on Decapitated too.

857

:

I feel like in the world of guitaring and the world of metal, Decapitated has been around

for years, but no matter how long they've been around for, still incredibly underrated.

858

:

my God.

859

:

dude people sleep on that band like crazy, and I don't understand why like the guitar

playing is bananas Yeah, but also the songs are so freakin sick man.

860

:

I Love that band and again Vogue is a total package player say so battle the bar total

package and gosh, I gotta think of a good one here.

861

:

I got something something good to get these guys going toe-to-toe

862

:

Is there anybody that came to mind for you whenever you thought up this question?

863

:

I don't know.

864

:

For me, there's so many great guitarists.

865

:

And the thing is like, yeah.

866

:

Go ahead.

867

:

no, go ahead with it.

868

:

Yeah, yeah, you got it.

869

:

Keep it up.

870

:

I want to have I want to have a freak show match.

871

:

I want to have Buckethead versus John 5 get the real theatrical guys together, you know,

have them duke it out.

872

:

I want to see the battle of the of the freak show players.

873

:

my God, that'd be perfect too.

874

:

And they both obviously have to be full garb and everything.

875

:

None of the John five without the makeup, like totally like how he would play live.

876

:

Absolutely.

877

:

my gosh.

878

:

That'd be a good one.

879

:

And now I'm thinking, I'm like, man, who would it be?

880

:

I feel like it'd have to be like for world championship, would have to be Steve Vai versus

Guthrie Govan.

881

:

yeah, dude, now we're talking.

882

:

Yeah, like it's like the A1 and the AB like we always talk about.

883

:

That's like the stone cold versus the rock of guitar playing, you know, and no disrespect

to anybody else.

884

:

but then you have who else?

885

:

feel like it would just be Guthrie Govan versus everybody.

886

:

The legacy guys Guthrie Govan versus Satriani, you know, all those, you know what you

could do?

887

:

You could have a really good matchup.

888

:

You could have Kirk Hammett versus, Joe Satriani and have that be a whole teacher to

mentor kind of thing.

889

:

there's a lot of storyline right there, right?

890

:

Teacher versus student match.

891

:

I like how that sounds a lot.

892

:

You can do the same thing with five versus snatch as well there.

893

:

I like it.

894

:

Bys got the height advantage man.

895

:

yeah, you know what's interesting?

896

:

None of us brought up Malmsteen for anything.

897

:

oh

898

:

step into the ring with the Viking?

899

:

None of us, man.

900

:

Too intimidated.

901

:

You know what though?

902

:

I am gonna throw this one out there and I don't know why and I think it's just because

again he's just a monster of a player but he's also ripped to the gills even though he's

903

:

older.

904

:

George Lynch versus Yngwie Malmsteen?

905

:

Like that'd be one.

906

:

or or Petrushy because Petrushy is Jack too, right?

907

:

That'd be like the hunk match, right?

908

:

my God, that'd be great.

909

:

And you know what?

910

:

I'll throw one in for the, for our female brethren here as well, because I'm so happy.

911

:

And I say this all the time with my students.

912

:

I'm so happy that a lot of my students are girls now for guitar too.

913

:

Cause I'm just like, man, I love the fact of seeing that next generation of guitarists

really get into it and it not just being dudes and seeing like girls really rock out on

914

:

it.

915

:

Should I put Gretchen Menon?

916

:

Yes, I'm going to put Gretchen.

917

:

I'm going to put Gretchen Menon and Anne Wilson because that one.

918

:

Yeah, they're both phenomenal players.

919

:

I almost feel like that one wouldn't even be like there'd be no grudge there.

920

:

It would literally just be both of them.

921

:

Well, here we are.

922

:

Let's just shred together.

923

:

And then it would be like a total like pose down kind of thing.

924

:

It'd be awesome.

925

:

I love how that sounds.

926

:

That's amazing, But yeah, you're right, man.

927

:

The explosion of female guitar players for the future is huge, man.

928

:

That is a huge wave that's coming.

929

:

Yeah.

930

:

And you know, you hear so many good ones now.

931

:

And I'm just like, every time you go on Instagram, every time you hear a new record come

out, it's just like, man, I wish we would have had so many more of these players

932

:

throughout time, just because I wish there was even so much more of a highlight, like just

over time.

933

:

But now, now the internet's given that to us.

934

:

So.

935

:

I think too that you're seeing the power of representation at work there too, you know,

because when, I was a kid, if you were a girl that played guitar, I mean, we had like lead

936

:

afford, you know, there just weren't many, you know, yeah, yeah, the chicks from heart.

937

:

but it wasn't really about their playing.

938

:

It was about the singing and the songs and all that.

939

:

So there just wasn't that much representation.

940

:

So I would imagine if you were a young female back then,

941

:

It was hard to imagine yourself taking that spot because you didn't see yourself

represented that way in media and in music and all that.

942

:

But nowadays, I mean, I'm no Taylor Swift fan by any means, although by all accounts, a

wonderful person.

943

:

I've known people who've worked on her crew and she's treated her crew like gold.

944

:

So I appreciate that about her, but I'm not necessarily a fan of her music, but I think

just.

945

:

You know, for a lot of for a lot of girls that they're seeing like, my God, this is a girl

that plays guitar.

946

:

and she's making it, she's on the screen.

947

:

There's that representation factor.

948

:

Here's somebody that looks like me that's doing what I wanna do and they're nailing it.

949

:

Maybe that means I got a chance at it.

950

:

I think we're seeing the power of representation.

951

:

I agree with that too.

952

:

And because you brought up Taylor Swift before I ask you the final question, because you

brought up Taylor Swift, do you know who Taylor Swift used to babysit for who's in the

953

:

wrestling industry?

954

:

No.

955

:

Jeff Jarrett.

956

:

What?

957

:

Double J Jeff Jarrett?

958

:

You're kidding.

959

:

posted a picture and he was like, yeah, Taylor Swift used to be our babysitter.

960

:

And there's the picture of her teaching the kids music while he's just there in the

background.

961

:

Just like, ain't I great?

962

:

No, I'm just like, this is so cool.

963

:

And then did he like take the guitar and smash it, El Cabong him, you know?

964

:

That's all he could teach him.

965

:

that's how he like, as, as time went on, he tried to do it and she's like, not today.

966

:

And that's how he, that's how she started.

967

:

Yeah.

968

:

It's so cool to see that.

969

:

And like, you know, it's, it's just so interesting to me.

970

:

There's always so much music and wrestling intersects in the world and you'll find it.

971

:

You'll see it.

972

:

Even hardcore music now is getting into wrestling and it's been there for a while, but

like, there's so much to it.

973

:

Yup.

974

:

question I'm gonna ask you before you leave and I ask all the guests before they leave.

975

:

If you had to think of three songs to put on a Spotify or Apple playlist that represent

Ben Eller, what are those three songs?

976

:

my God.

977

:

Okay.

978

:

Me as a player or me as a person.

979

:

You can do a list for both if you'd like.

980

:

I mean, they're kind of intertwined really, you know, those two things are definitely

intertwined.

981

:

Let's see.

982

:

I don't think that I would be playing music if not for Dookie by Green Day.

983

:

Like that's honestly kind of my secret origin story is, you know, I heard Green Day

whenever my brother got that CD from the pawn shop and I'd grown up listening to Van Halen

984

:

and ZZ Top and all this, you know, really hot stuff on guitar.

985

:

before I even picked up the instrument and it was like, I could never do that.

986

:

I could never play like that.

987

:

You know what I mean?

988

:

I kind of gave up before I even started, but I heard Green Day and I was like, this sounds

like something I could do.

989

:

I bet I could do this, you know?

990

:

Again, there's that representation thing, you know, there's somebody who's not a guitar

god and they're out here rocking and playing songs all over the world.

991

:

Maybe that could be me next.

992

:

So I maybe have like, like Welcome to Paradise off of Dookie.

993

:

It's probably one I would have on there.

994

:

I would probably have, I'd have to have, I'm the one by Van Halen.

995

:

mean, Van Halen has always been at the, at the cornerstone of my being.

996

:

It's like literally my oldest memories I have as a human being are listening to Van Halen

one, like earliest memories period.

997

:

It's that needle dropping on my parents vinyl of Van Halen one and hearing eruption.

998

:

And you really got me in songs like that.

999

:

I'm the one has always just been like that's the most bad ass guitar song of all time.

:

00:58:15,152 --> 00:58:18,287

and I would have to have some Steve Vai on there wouldn't I?

:

00:58:18,287 --> 00:58:28,805

I'd have to you know because again that's the guy that really cemented like I have to do

this the rest of my life you know Green Day was kind of the spark and Steve Vai was the

:

00:58:28,805 --> 00:58:39,512

the stick of dynamite you know that really just blew me up so maybe something off of

Passion and Warfare because that's the album that changed my life for sure I don't want to

:

00:58:39,512 --> 00:58:42,066

say For the Love of God because I'm not really a balladsman

:

00:58:42,066 --> 00:58:44,647

although that's obviously a very important piece of music.

:

00:58:44,647 --> 00:58:48,569

Maybe something like, probably like Erotic Nightmares.

:

00:58:48,569 --> 00:58:55,339

Yeah, that was a song that I remember hearing on that and it starts off with all the kind

of typical guitar virtuoso stuff.

:

00:58:55,339 --> 00:59:01,034

It's got a sick riff, it's got whammy bar stuff and all kinds of cool rock-isms in there.

:

00:59:01,034 --> 00:59:03,845

And then it gets to the dream sequence part of the song.

:

00:59:03,845 --> 00:59:05,236

You know the tune, don't you?

:

00:59:05,646 --> 00:59:10,458

It gets to the dream sequence part of the song and it's just really abstract and weird.

:

00:59:10,750 --> 00:59:14,822

I don't know it opened my eyes to what you can do with instrumental music.

:

00:59:14,822 --> 00:59:16,486

So I'd probably have to have that on there.

:

00:59:16,486 --> 00:59:19,403

Yeah Green Day Van Halen and Steve Vai.

:

00:59:19,764 --> 00:59:21,044

That's a great list.

:

00:59:21,044 --> 00:59:25,584

And because you brought up Steve Vai, I think Steve Vai would be on mine too.

:

00:59:25,584 --> 00:59:29,844

Because to me, Steve Vai is always just like my favorite guitarist of all time.

:

00:59:30,704 --> 00:59:33,464

yeah, everyone can come after him and before him.

:

00:59:33,464 --> 00:59:41,644

But for me, it's like when you think about a composer, you think about a complete package,

you think about somebody who's just overly unique and everything is musical, it's him.

:

00:59:41,644 --> 00:59:48,084

And for me, I remember when I had first heard about Steve Vai years, and obviously when I

was a kid, was like, all right, cool.

:

00:59:48,456 --> 00:59:49,887

You know, when I looked at him, I'm all right, whatever.

:

00:59:49,887 --> 00:59:50,887

weird thing to say.

:

00:59:50,887 --> 00:59:55,918

But then I remember hearing building the church and building the church was life changing.

:

00:59:55,918 --> 00:59:59,259

Cause like, I had learned about tapping, but I was like, I'm never going to be able to do

that.

:

00:59:59,259 --> 01:00:03,190

I'm just a rhythm player, you know, cause that's the kind of silly things we think about

when we're young.

:

01:00:03,190 --> 01:00:06,111

And then all of sudden they hear that and I'm like, what is this?

:

01:00:06,111 --> 01:00:08,132

Like, just this is cool.

:

01:00:08,132 --> 01:00:10,653

And then I saw him doing it with his hand over the neck doing this.

:

01:00:10,653 --> 01:00:13,173

And I'm like, what are we doing?

:

01:00:14,434 --> 01:00:15,455

It's crazy.

:

01:00:15,455 --> 01:00:17,458

And then the riffs in that song and the soul.

:

01:00:17,458 --> 01:00:20,541

That's that's one of his most well composed songs, in my opinion.

:

01:00:20,541 --> 01:00:23,054

Just the flow of that tune is so beautiful.

:

01:00:23,426 --> 01:00:30,735

Yeah, yeah, that that record I think is to me, I know a lot of people go with Flexibles

and they go with all that for me.

:

01:00:30,735 --> 01:00:33,147

I still fit my favorite Steve Vai record of all time.

:

01:00:33,147 --> 01:00:38,944

And it might just be because that's the one that got me really into it is real illusions,

reflections.

:

01:00:38,944 --> 01:00:42,369

You know, the second one is cool, but the first one is like, yeah, that's for me.

:

01:00:42,369 --> 01:00:43,083

it's cool.

:

01:00:43,083 --> 01:00:43,584

man.

:

01:00:43,584 --> 01:00:46,145

have a same kind of similar soft spot for the ultra zone.

:

01:00:46,145 --> 01:00:48,706

Cause that came out like I'll put it to you this way.

:

01:00:48,706 --> 01:00:50,847

You know, I I've gotten passion warfare.

:

01:00:51,167 --> 01:00:57,863

Whenever the ultra zone came out, that was the first new Steve vie album to come out after

I started playing guitar.

:

01:00:57,863 --> 01:00:58,610

Does that make sense?

:

01:00:58,610 --> 01:01:00,170

Does that say that right?

:

01:01:00,251 --> 01:01:03,112

So it was the first new vie album that came out.

:

01:01:03,112 --> 01:01:06,723

So I got that and songs on there like he has ultra zone.

:

01:01:06,723 --> 01:01:09,028

Ooh, he's one of my absolute favorites.

:

01:01:09,028 --> 01:01:10,178

fever dream.

:

01:01:10,178 --> 01:01:11,119

my God.

:

01:01:11,119 --> 01:01:15,200

Easily in my top three Steve Bison's fever dream is the best.

:

01:01:15,240 --> 01:01:23,423

I have a real soft spot for that record, even though it does have some really cheesy

sounds like Disney ballads with vocals on it that I, I skip.

:

01:01:23,423 --> 01:01:24,013

Sorry, Steve.

:

01:01:24,013 --> 01:01:29,145

I skipped those, but the instrumentals on it are so freaking good, man.

:

01:01:30,005 --> 01:01:31,015

What else is on your play?

:

01:01:31,015 --> 01:01:33,216

You got me thinking what else is on your playlist?

:

01:01:33,226 --> 01:01:35,678

Yeah, so I'll put building the church on there for sure.

:

01:01:35,678 --> 01:01:38,410

And I promise I'm not stealing a lot of yours.

:

01:01:38,410 --> 01:01:41,512

It's just, I think we grew up fairly simpatico on here.

:

01:01:41,793 --> 01:01:43,134

Exactly, yes.

:

01:01:43,134 --> 01:01:50,481

And so Van Halen for me, I didn't get into them until I was much older, but the way I'd

gotten into Ozzy was off.

:

01:01:50,481 --> 01:01:52,723

We went into the Walgreens one day and my dad had got me.

:

01:01:52,723 --> 01:01:53,864

It was like, can I get this record?

:

01:01:53,864 --> 01:01:55,325

It was the greatest hits of Ozzy.

:

01:01:55,325 --> 01:01:56,426

And he was like, yeah, totally.

:

01:01:56,426 --> 01:01:57,975

So I got that and...

:

01:01:57,975 --> 01:01:58,875

You know, I heard crazy trade.

:

01:01:58,875 --> 01:02:00,217

I'm like, all right, I kind of knew Tracy train.

:

01:02:00,217 --> 01:02:00,658

Great.

:

01:02:00,658 --> 01:02:01,999

I heard bark at the moon.

:

01:02:01,999 --> 01:02:03,961

I was like, what is this?

:

01:02:03,961 --> 01:02:05,703

Like to me?

:

01:02:05,703 --> 01:02:06,192

Yeah.

:

01:02:06,192 --> 01:02:07,896

And I heresy be damned.

:

01:02:07,896 --> 01:02:08,186

Right.

:

01:02:08,186 --> 01:02:15,224

But for me, I will always say that bark of the moon is probably my favorite Ozzy song of

all time.

:

01:02:15,224 --> 01:02:17,176

It's like, it's so different.

:

01:02:17,176 --> 01:02:17,756

I'm sorry.

:

01:02:17,756 --> 01:02:19,137

It's not Randy.

:

01:02:19,799 --> 01:02:20,759

Yeah.

:

01:02:21,229 --> 01:02:22,249

is not Randy Rhoades.

:

01:02:22,249 --> 01:02:25,603

Randy Rhoades is phenomenal, but like they're so, the song is great.

:

01:02:25,603 --> 01:02:27,185

There's so much cool stuff in there.

:

01:02:27,185 --> 01:02:32,399

And like you think about the way that he played that it was unbelievable.

:

01:02:32,399 --> 01:02:42,259

And then in terms of a third one, okay, in terms of a third one, I'm going to go a little

bit out of left field because I, I wouldn't be me if I didn't.

:

01:02:42,259 --> 01:02:44,241

It's a band called a Wilhelm scream.

:

01:02:44,241 --> 01:02:46,413

And when I was in college, it's

:

01:02:47,329 --> 01:02:50,352

Yeah, they're still to this day, one of my favorite bands.

:

01:02:50,352 --> 01:02:55,636

And up into college, I was very much, you know, just guitar driven music and, you know,

things like that.

:

01:02:55,636 --> 01:03:04,034

But when I got into college, a buddy of mine, Seth, was very much into like this, what we

call like melodic hardcore style, you know, and like that heart sounds, kinds of bands.

:

01:03:04,034 --> 01:03:09,208

And I feel like if you put a guitar in my hands, that's the style I play with instrumental

vibes to it.

:

01:03:09,208 --> 01:03:09,560

Right.

:

01:03:09,560 --> 01:03:14,058

And I remember hearing this song by them called the horse and I was like,

:

01:03:14,058 --> 01:03:17,060

This song is crazy and it's got like the super tapping bass solo.

:

01:03:17,060 --> 01:03:18,971

The guitars are doing really cool stuff.

:

01:03:18,971 --> 01:03:20,912

It's like technical punk.

:

01:03:20,912 --> 01:03:24,074

It's like punk in different time signatures and things like that.

:

01:03:24,074 --> 01:03:30,358

And it's the records that they've put out like mute print and things like that are some of

my favorites, but that song changed for me.

:

01:03:30,358 --> 01:03:36,701

Like it was right before I heard probably like the same week actually that I heard protest

the hero.

:

01:03:36,701 --> 01:03:41,300

And so those two will always be like my one a and one B for like.

:

01:03:41,300 --> 01:03:41,980

that style.

:

01:03:41,980 --> 01:03:49,760

Protested Heroes is a lot more dramatic and a lot more like crazy, but if you listen to

like, uh, Kazaya and that kind of record, for me, it's like, okay, cool.

:

01:03:49,760 --> 01:03:53,560

Like it's either the horse from that or Blindfold Decide by Protest.

:

01:03:53,560 --> 01:03:55,800

And I'm like, yeah.

:

01:03:56,300 --> 01:04:00,660

So it's a lot of different things.

:

01:04:01,400 --> 01:04:01,640

Yeah.

:

01:04:01,640 --> 01:04:02,860

Uh-oh.

:

01:04:02,860 --> 01:04:03,536

Uh-oh.

:

01:04:03,536 --> 01:04:07,556

this just before we got on the air and it came to me again, it came to me so fast.

:

01:04:07,556 --> 01:04:08,276

was like, that's it.

:

01:04:08,276 --> 01:04:09,456

That's the answer.

:

01:04:09,676 --> 01:04:10,896

All right.

:

01:04:10,896 --> 01:04:19,956

If you were a hardcore Razzler, what is your finishing move and what is your, you know,

like trademark catchphrase?

:

01:04:19,956 --> 01:04:22,376

I'll give you a sec to think about it while I'll tell you about mine.

:

01:04:22,376 --> 01:04:22,889

So

:

01:04:22,889 --> 01:04:28,143

I was thinking about this and if I stepped into the squared circle and it's it's not a

character.

:

01:04:28,143 --> 01:04:28,674

It's Uncle Ben.

:

01:04:28,674 --> 01:04:30,044

It's just me right?

:

01:04:30,565 --> 01:04:35,738

I think my finisher is going to be some kind of like hard ass brutal submission move.

:

01:04:35,738 --> 01:04:37,790

Probably something old school like a Boston crab.

:

01:04:37,790 --> 01:04:40,371

Also that move sucks if you've ever been put in a Boston crab.

:

01:04:40,371 --> 01:04:41,142

It's awful.

:

01:04:41,142 --> 01:04:41,988

It's terrible.

:

01:04:41,988 --> 01:04:47,069

everyone would put you in it, especially if you had like brothers and sisters or cousins,

they'd all put you in it.

:

01:04:47,069 --> 01:04:47,570

man.

:

01:04:47,570 --> 01:04:50,852

I got crabbed on the trampoline very many times in my youth.

:

01:04:50,852 --> 01:04:52,033

Crabbed on the...

:

01:04:52,914 --> 01:04:54,976

I got crabbed on the trampoline.

:

01:04:54,976 --> 01:04:56,707

That's totally merch, dude.

:

01:04:56,707 --> 01:04:57,878

That rules.

:

01:04:57,878 --> 01:05:02,922

That might be the name of my solo album that I'm working on this year.

:

01:05:02,922 --> 01:05:04,084

Crabbed on the trampoline.

:

01:05:04,084 --> 01:05:06,045

So I think it's going to be a submission move.

:

01:05:06,045 --> 01:05:13,361

And like, as the person I'm laying this on is like struggling and writhing around in pain,

I'm giving them my catchphrase.

:

01:05:13,499 --> 01:05:14,644

Say uncle!

:

01:05:14,644 --> 01:05:15,437

Say uncle!

:

01:05:15,437 --> 01:05:17,634

It's good!

:

01:05:17,797 --> 01:05:18,745

It's good!

:

01:05:18,745 --> 01:05:25,029

I love how it's all on brand too and I can imagine you looking deep down the camera going

I'm gonna make you say uncle

:

01:05:25,029 --> 01:05:27,409

it.

:

01:05:27,409 --> 01:05:28,849

Oh my god

:

01:05:29,007 --> 01:05:29,718

I love that.

:

01:05:29,718 --> 01:05:31,210

So now what would mine be?

:

01:05:31,210 --> 01:05:38,464

I've thought about like overtime and this and that and like, you know, I think like we all

do, we put like our own characters and our own storylines and like, if I was this, what

:

01:05:38,464 --> 01:05:39,195

would it be?

:

01:05:39,195 --> 01:05:46,008

For me, my finisher would be like the way that Cactus Jack used to do the pile driver

called the Cactus Special.

:

01:05:46,008 --> 01:05:51,052

Tony Storm kind of does it the way now he did called the, she calls it the Storm Zero.

:

01:05:51,052 --> 01:05:55,935

And it's basically like, well, so that was what he did later on, but when he used

:

01:05:55,935 --> 01:06:00,479

When as cactus Jack, he used to not get the person like vertical like this and then put

him down.

:

01:06:00,479 --> 01:06:03,201

He used to just like drag them down.

:

01:06:03,201 --> 01:06:07,334

And to me, I was like, there's been three people I've seen do it really well.

:

01:06:07,334 --> 01:06:10,166

Cactus Jack, Sammy Callahan and Tony storm.

:

01:06:10,166 --> 01:06:12,908

And I'm like, that looks like it sucks.

:

01:06:13,969 --> 01:06:17,892

That one would have to be, would have to be mine.

:

01:06:18,414 --> 01:06:20,296

man, catchphrases.

:

01:06:20,296 --> 01:06:24,749

I'm never good with catchphrases, even for like the show, even for anything.

:

01:06:24,998 --> 01:06:26,628

I'm never good with them.

:

01:06:26,809 --> 01:06:31,132

and I feel like it'd be like, I feel like I'm going to say something cheesy, like lights

out right now.

:

01:06:31,132 --> 01:06:39,216

And then all of a sudden, like it's simple, but then I feel like I'm going to get off the,

the interview here and I'm to be like, this would have been so much better.

:

01:06:39,230 --> 01:06:41,307

So we'll say lights out for now.

:

01:06:41,307 --> 01:06:43,938

Cause that's also good if you're doing a pile driver.

:

01:06:44,230 --> 01:06:44,778

So.

:

01:06:44,778 --> 01:06:46,471

that's going to put them out for sure.

:

01:06:47,548 --> 01:06:48,654

I dig it.

:

01:06:49,108 --> 01:06:50,984

That's good question.

:

01:06:50,984 --> 01:06:51,724

my gosh.

:

01:06:51,724 --> 01:06:52,484

You can use that.

:

01:06:52,484 --> 01:06:54,429

I just get a percentage, you know?

:

01:06:54,723 --> 01:06:55,604

The Ben tax.

:

01:06:55,604 --> 01:07:00,904

uh Well, Ben, as always, it's always awesome talking to you.

:

01:07:00,904 --> 01:07:05,953

I'm glad we finally got to get the time to chat here, hit the record button, and do our

thing.

:

01:07:05,953 --> 01:07:07,178

So thank you so much.

:

01:07:07,178 --> 01:07:08,727

man, it's been a lot.

:

01:07:08,727 --> 01:07:14,578

I remember you were hitting me up earlier in the year, before the Macedon thing was coming

and it's like, could we wait a little while?

:

01:07:14,578 --> 01:07:16,881

I kind of got a lot on my plate I can't talk about.

:

01:07:16,881 --> 01:07:18,844

But just give me a week and you'll see what it is.

:

01:07:18,844 --> 01:07:27,534

I forget who I had said that I thought it was, like, knowing it's Mastodon, it's so just,

again, you deserve it, you know, and it's just so cool, man.

:

01:07:27,534 --> 01:07:28,715

appreciate that very much.

:

01:07:28,715 --> 01:07:36,881

had a lot of people because I had to keep tight lipped about it there for that short

period of time and I had a lot of people that were sending me guesses and a lot of people

:

01:07:36,881 --> 01:07:39,192

are like, dude, you're going on the road to ghost, aren't you?

:

01:07:39,192 --> 01:07:41,343

You're going to be an aimless ghoul, aren't you?

:

01:07:41,704 --> 01:07:42,884

Yeah.

:

01:07:43,505 --> 01:07:46,206

And I'm like, how do you know I already haven't?

:

01:07:46,739 --> 01:07:47,779

That's fair.

:

01:07:47,779 --> 01:07:48,619

That's fair.

:

01:07:48,619 --> 01:07:50,940

With Ghost you could get away with it, right?

:

01:07:53,361 --> 01:08:01,274

That's like when CM Punk didn't wrestle for a while and then he afterwards he went into

AEW but people still suspect that he was on the indies under a mask every now and again

:

01:08:01,274 --> 01:08:06,106

because there was a video of him from like a VFW where he was like where there were like

30 people there.

:

01:08:06,106 --> 01:08:10,090

There was just a guy in a mask and you know just randomly someone was recording.

:

01:08:10,090 --> 01:08:14,241

just this guy runs up hits a GTS a go to sleep and everyone's just like

:

01:08:14,241 --> 01:08:17,226

Hmm, doing the math here.

:

01:08:17,272 --> 01:08:18,914

yeah, it's not just it's a GTS.

:

01:08:18,914 --> 01:08:21,438

It's like, kind of looks like the way you'd it, dog.

:

01:08:21,575 --> 01:08:22,427

That's funny.

:

01:08:22,427 --> 01:08:23,138

That's awesome.

:

01:08:23,138 --> 01:08:24,810

I appreciate the patients very much, man.

:

01:08:24,810 --> 01:08:26,713

I know we've been trying to do this for a while.

:

01:08:27,312 --> 01:08:27,926

man, of course.

:

01:08:27,926 --> 01:08:28,873

Thank you, my friend.

:

01:08:28,873 --> 01:08:29,869

Always good talking to you.

:

01:08:29,869 --> 01:08:32,046

new music of your own coming for soon?

:

01:08:32,156 --> 01:08:32,697

You'll hear it.

:

01:08:32,697 --> 01:08:33,097

Yup.

:

01:08:33,097 --> 01:08:34,950

Trying to do a couple things with it.

:

01:08:34,950 --> 01:08:36,653

So I don't usually do a lot of videos.

:

01:08:36,653 --> 01:08:38,586

I'm trying to do more videos before releases.

:

01:08:38,586 --> 01:08:42,691

I'll tell you about something I'm working on off air too, because that's kind of cool.

:

01:08:42,691 --> 01:08:46,054

So, absolutely.

All Episodes Previous Episode

Listen for free

Show artwork for Ropes N Riffs

About the Podcast

Ropes N Riffs
Join John Kiernan, wrestling entrance theme song composer, and professional musician of over 10 years for stories and interviews with your favorite wrestlers, rock stars, and personalities!
About The Host:
John Kiernan is a wrestling entrance theme song composer with over 150 themes written for wrestlers in various promotions such as NJPW, WWE, ROH, MLW, and many more. As a professional musician, a veteran in the podcasting space, an avid pro wrestling fan and wrestling personality by way of creating the soundtracks for your favorite wrestlers, John Kiernan forges his latest podcasting venture into diving into stories of music, stories from the road, and wrestling from all walks of life from your (and his) favorites of all time.
Support This Show

About your host

Profile picture for John Kiernan

John Kiernan